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Ukraine - Superthread

I really have a problem with the way the media reports these.

It implies a lot of monetary benefit going to Ukraine when in fact $2.1B is essentially a credit line to buy specified gear from US or NATO industries that transfer money from the taxpayer to industry and shareholders.
IIRC the 2.1B is for FMS, I dont think they can buy other country items direct.
Then of the $500M much is in the form of existing weapons and equipment that is partly depreciated (AKA used) or but listed at current (somewhat inflated) US replacement cost not actual current value (vehicles etc) or initial purchase cost (old almost out of service life 155 shells and ammunition etc), or even the new sales cost from other countries.
Drawdown items, aren't costed at replacement, the Hummers went out the door at $5k a piece, very few items are at replacement cost.
Either way we (the US TaxPayer) get a bargain by the Ukrainians using them against the Russians, as that is what we bought it for ;)

Then of course there is the undefined portion of the total that is lend-lease that we get paid back VS the amount that is a donation. We need more Perun's in the media to fact check the PR releases.
Lend-Lease is a blackhole, it always was, other than we won't be able to re-import cool items later as they are still technically US Property (my Ithaca 1943 1911 I acquired in Iraq was one of those sadly)
 
What I found weirdly lacking in that whole sequence of Leeroy Jenkins tank v trench videos is a total lack of apparent coax fire.

Cheerful thought for the day:

Knowing some armoured corps people like I do, my guess is they wanted to make sure the Russians were still somewhat alive when they ground them into fertilizer with the tracks ;)
 
What I found weirdly lacking in that whole sequence of Leeroy Jenkins tank v trench videos is a total lack of apparent coax fire.
I suspect they could not depress it into the trench, as they were so close.
But honestly some of these videos seem to be so weird:
Lone tank with no supporting infantry visible (even in IFV/APC’s).
Moonscape type terrain that is shot to hell by Arty/Mortars.
 
I suspect they could not depress it into the trench, as they were so close.
But honestly some of these videos seem to be so weird:
Lone tank with no supporting infantry visible (even in IFV/APC’s).
Moonscape type terrain that is shot to hell by Arty/Mortars.
I'm not too sure about this war being a glimpse into the future of war as opposed to visions of past wars. In fact I think we've seen this before it reminds me of the first Persian Gulf war between Iraq and Iran in the late 1970's.
 
I suspect they could not depress it into the trench, as they were so close.
But honestly some of these videos seem to be so weird:
Lone tank with no supporting infantry visible (even in IFV/APC’s).
Moonscape type terrain that is shot to hell by Arty/Mortars.
And one tiny lone trench in the middle of nowhere.
 
Hats off to the French for pulling no punches. Yes, they're doing it for their own purposes but if it gets the job done, I'm in.


French envoy: Canada should link with Europe, surpass 'weak' military engagement​


He suggested that Ottawa needs to demonstrate a similar commitment to global security.

"The same goes for Canada and its weak defence effort, nevertheless, somewhat forgetful of the memory of its past commitments, of the courage shown in all major conflicts, as in peacekeeping operations."
 
After some reading and thinking for a few minutes as I write this.

1) President Bush went it alone more or less in Gulf War 2, he was invading no matter the reasoning.
( Yes the Brits went along with a few other nations) But in my opinion he was going alone if it came down to it.

2) President Obama was left with the mess, GW2 and Afghanistan, but could not back down as it would show him as weak leader. Syria situation was a no win, situation. American troops had been at war for over a decade and saw no win solutions, they were tired of a no win war. It would of put troops in direct conflict with Russian Forces ( not saying there has not been any exchanges of fire, just no direct action )

3) Trump had one goal and only one goal fix it for his friends and their money. Taxes etc. He wanted to pull the troops out and made a heard deal with a deadline. Once the deadline was made and he was not in Office, he stuck the next President with a bad deal and no way out of it, without looking like the bad guy the next President had to pull out the troops even if it meant the Afghanistan government would fail. which it did in double quick time.

4) President Biden, got a deal, he gets to look tough and stand up to Russia without putting any of his troops in harms way

He supplies the Ukrainian forces with American weapons, gets to prove the American weapons are better and more deadly than the Russian weapons. This gives the made in America speech line a lot of strength. Look at us saving the freedom of the oppressed people of the Ukrainians and no American lives are at risk.

Canadian leaders did not want to get involved in GW2. Afghanistan was a war we got pulled into and did very well as long as it was popular and looked as if we were making a difference over there. ( What difference we made can be debated another time). We spent huge amounts of cash and went into debt to pay for the equipment, the ammo and everything else.

Canadian leaders have never wanted to fund a proper military to protect or project protection of Canada. 75 000 troops of branches and trades.

That is 1 trooper for every 133 square KM we could never defend out country on our own. Forget coast lines , air cover. Most Canadians live within 2 hours of the US Border. Europe and yes France is hours away by aircraft, and days by ship, not much help if we are invaded.

If Russia came over the the Pole or thru Alaska the US would know about it before we did.

Besides the US who is going to help defend us in a timely manner?


Now if the shoe is on the other foot and the invaders come from the South. Europe and France is too far away to help, we are doomed till the forces of Mother Nature freeze out the American forces.


Who else do we tie our defence with ?
 
I
After some reading and thinking for a few minutes as I write this.

1) President Bush went it alone more or less in Gulf War 2, he was invading no matter the reasoning.
( Yes the Brits went along with a few other nations) But in my opinion he was going alone if it came down to it.

2) President Obama was left with the mess, GW2 and Afghanistan, but could not back down as it would show him as weak leader. Syria situation was a no win, situation. American troops had been at war for over a decade and saw no win solutions, they were tired of a no win war. It would of put troops in direct conflict with Russian Forces ( not saying there has not been any exchanges of fire, just no direct action )

3) Trump had one goal and only one goal fix it for his friends and their money. Taxes etc. He wanted to pull the troops out and made a heard deal with a deadline. Once the deadline was made and he was not in Office, he stuck the next President with a bad deal and no way out of it, without looking like the bad guy the next President had to pull out the troops even if it meant the Afghanistan government would fail. which it did in double quick time.

4) President Biden, got a deal, he gets to look tough and stand up to Russia without putting any of his troops in harms way

He supplies the Ukrainian forces with American weapons, gets to prove the American weapons are better and more deadly than the Russian weapons. This gives the made in America speech line a lot of strength. Look at us saving the freedom of the oppressed people of the Ukrainians and no American lives are at risk.

Canadian leaders did not want to get involved in GW2. Afghanistan was a war we got pulled into and did very well as long as it was popular and looked as if we were making a difference over there. ( What difference we made can be debated another time). We spent huge amounts of cash and went into debt to pay for the equipment, the ammo and everything else.

Canadian leaders have never wanted to fund a proper military to protect or project protection of Canada. 75 000 troops of branches and trades.

That is 1 trooper for every 133 square KM we could never defend out country on our own. Forget coast lines , air cover. Most Canadians live within 2 hours of the US Border. Europe and yes France is hours away by aircraft, and days by ship, not much help if we are invaded.

If Russia came over the the Pole or thru Alaska the US would know about it before we did.

Besides the US who is going to help defend us in a timely manner?


Now if the shoe is on the other foot and the invaders come from the South. Europe and France is too far away to help, we are doomed till the forces of Mother Nature freeze out the American forces.


Who else do we tie our defence wit h ?
Wow....Obama made things wor
se. Plus Libya was a bigger mistake than Iraq and Syria was a division is too.

Trump was trying to a better deal for all Americans. Plus after three years is there really anyone who can say things are better now. No one can say they better today are just lying.
 
What I found weirdly lacking in that whole sequence of Leeroy Jenkins tank v trench videos is a total lack of apparent coax fire.
The BMP is laying down fire when the tank is approaching. You can see the tracers.
 
I
Wow....Obama made things wor
se. Plus Libya was a bigger mistake than Iraq and Syria was a division is too.

Trump was trying to a better deal for all Americans. Plus after three years is there really anyone who can say things are better now. No one can say they better today are just lying.
Yea the whole Libya thing was Europe trying to get some curb stomping in. Never understood why anyone had to get involved?
 
Terry Glavin: The Russian propagandists amongst us

From Terry Glavin:

Titled Enemy of My Enemy , the report exposes the way polemics, propaganda lines and falsehoods of the kind associated with the fringes of the Green Party, the NDP and Maxime Bernier’s People’s Party are often indistinguishable from one another, permeating a social-media ecosystem of perhaps 200,000 Twitter accounts.


Among the Kremlin-friendly propaganda lines: Canadian foreign policy has been captured by the Ukrainian-Canadian community; Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is an understandable response to NATO provocations; Canada’s sanctions are causing inflation, global food shortages and rising fuel costs; and Russia’s invasion is really just a proxy war between Washington and Moscow that Canada should have nothing to do with.

It’s a peculiarity marked by a confluence of an extremist worldview uniting the far-right tendencies associated with Donald Trump — which defy conventional “conservative” values — with such nominally leftish groupuscules as the “Canada Files” website and the Hamilton Coalition to Stop the War. Among the most prominent pro-Putin apologists in the western world are the Canadian pseudo-journalists Aaron Maté, Yves Engler and Eva Bartlett. They congregate around “news” platforms such as the Greyzone and the Kremlin’s RT News and related digital operations, and routinely run interference for Syrian mass murderer Bashar Assad. And yet they purport to be “progressive.”

Tankies a MAGA sharing the same talking points.
 
Tacky sells...

The blurred lines between patriotism and profiteering in Ukraine​

What is the right way to commemorate a war when it is still being fought? Many victories, tragedies and acts of defiance have already been depicted in Ukrainian books, films and art. Popular subjects include the liberation of Snake Island, the defence of the Azovstal plant, the horrors of the Bucha massacre, a woman offering sunflower seeds to an occupying Russian soldier so they can grow when he dies, and the sinking of the Moskva warship.

However, it doesn’t take much to blur the lines between patriotism and profiteering. Anything with a military logo sells. Military–patriotic themes are being used to flog all sorts of products. War symbols have been slapped on socks, flip flops, vodka labels, designer clothes, sweets and even sex shops. Ukrainians are keen to buy from local sellers who promise to share profits with the army.

In Kyiv you can get ‘heroic Bucha Kombucha with citrus flavour’, ‘Azovstal’ radish seeds and ‘Ukrainian rage’ onion bulbs. There are ‘Heroes don’t die’ beer and coffee cups bearing the face of an assassinated Ukrainian soldier. One restaurant offers ‘Chornobaivka’ steaks, named after an occupied village in Kherson Oblast which Ukrainian forces shelled so much that, the joke went, Russians fried there.War symbols have been slapped on socks, flip flops, vodka labels, clothes, sweets and even sex shops

There seem to be no limits to these attempts to demonstrate patriotism or to profit from it. ‘You don’t need such a neighbour,’ reads a dentistry advert in Lviv, depicting crooked wisdom teeth painted in the colours of the Russian flag. ‘We returned Kherson; now return the pleasant smell,’ says a banner selling deodorant for sweaty feet.

Even the most patriotic Ukrainians see all this as excessive. Soldiers complain that such marketing ploys devalue what they are going through. Selling drinks named after Bucha (the previously occupied city where hundreds of massacred bodies were found) is not so far away from using My Lai as a brand name.

The government is trying to crack down on the profiteering. Last month, a group of Ukrainian MPs submitted a draft law which would control commercial advertising and marketing using wartime themes. If the law passes through Verkhovna Rada, Ukraine’s parliament, the use of war-related branding, including any references to massacres, hostilities, names of weapons and military slogans (including ‘Glory to Ukraine’), would be banned. No penalty has yet been agreed and exceptions will be made for the promotion of films or books about the invasion.

The problem with the bill is that many businesses are genuinely motivated by helping the war effort. Tens of millions of pounds have already been donated to the army from Ukraine’s private sector. Yes, some of the advertising might be coarse (‘Laser hair removal to strengthen the army!’ shrieks one ad, the idea being that 10 per cent of the proceeds go to soldiers and volunteers), but if the government goes ahead and sets these restrictions on companies, their bottom lines may be affected and so therefore will their contributions to the war effort.

A possible compromise could be to require businesses to report the profits they donate to the army, given that it’s currently anyone’s guess which companies stick to their donation pledges. Or perhaps there could be a system of licensing so that those who wish to use patriotic slogans must seek approval, though whether a wartime government would have time for such relative trivialities is another question. Where, also, to draw the line? Boxer shorts are on sale which feature the coat of arms of Ukraine – the trident of Volodymyr the Great – over the crotch. They are tasteless, certainly, but not explicitly to do with the war. Moreover, Ukraine’s law already forbids using or imitating the trident and the state flag in advertising, but nobody seems to care about it now. So even if new restrictions are to be implemented, the patriotic branding is unlikely to end.

Ukrainian society is divided between those fighting the war in the trenches and those who are feeling guilty for not doing so. Those living in the relative peace provided by the defenders understandably want to do what they can to help, even if it’s something small like buying things from companies that donate to the front line. If the bill does become law, it probably won’t stop Ukrainians continuing to shop for victory.



The blurred lines between patriotism and profiteering in Ukraine
 
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