The Wait

[Untraceable]

As most of us who are a part of this community know, it is mandatory to complete two years of service before being eligible to even apply for any of our SOF units. My question is do you think that this is the correct move. Now I encourage you to look beyond the average teenager and young man who are infatuated with the "beautiful woman" that war is; as Pindar put it "War is sweet to those who have never experienced it" -- of course most of them are going to want to jump right into the SOF units, as they should ! They are young boys full of testosterone and ready to 'get in it !' but beyond our generalization of young people and their lack of understanding for the business, would it really be a BAD thing to allow them to chase their so called dreams. We need only look south to see what direct entry into more elite and unconventional units can lead too. The Navy SEALs have flourished, and the best of the all the puppies are getting an opportunity to be 'made' into warriors.  The Americans require no such wait for an opportunity to enter any force ( excluding the invite only "tier 1" clubs [DEVGRU] [1st SFOD-D] [SOG/SAD] etc. ) -- and even though they have a larger population are we really willing to bet that they have more TALENTED young men. Now I understand that as a smaller military force we MUST weed out those who think they want it but realize that life isn't a video-game, at the same token though we must also be loosing young motivated men who have the "stuff" and are frustrated because of the requirements or are "stuck" (and I say that in the best way) with a conventional force that they find isn't quenching their thirst to be the best. Thoughts ?

 

[MJP]

Thoughts ?

If waiting two years makes one frustrated considering that for many the first year is basic and trades training anyway, then maybe SOF isn't for them in the first place.  When CSOR  reinstated their 2 year service requirement one of the main reasons was that the candidates with less service were sub-par compared to experienced peers.

 

[medicineman]

Thoughts ?

This isn't the US.

MM

 

[Journeyman]

SOF is waiting.

 

[Untraceable]

I hear you. Also could be a case of what I call "cramming". Lets be honest... search the CANSOFCOM forums and you are going to find the same posts and threads about JTF2 and CSOR over and over and over.... and over again (did I make my point). With a lot of talented young people all trying to get on the same team invariably there will be a lot of men that don't make it. Maybe America's ability to do what I previously stated is because they have 3 or 4 TIMES the SOF units and personnel we do. If I'm correct they have around 55,000 service men. Just a thought, as for the "This isn't America" comment, I admire your patriotism but with that said we must always be humble enough to learn from allies - neutrals - and enemies alike. It is how we evolve as a force. Thank you.

 

[medicineman]

Just a thought, as for the "This isn't America" comment, I admire your patriotism but with that said we must always be humble enough to learn from allies - neutrals - and enemies alike. It is how we evolve as a force. Thank you.

We have - that's why it's the way it is.  Who do you think helped train our Tier 1 unit and who do you think they train and fight with regularly...that's why they select the way they do.

Maybe when you get there and become the boss, you can decide to recruit folks straight off the street, but until then, those are the standards...my guess is they're there for a reason.

MM

 

[Untraceable]

Cheers mate.

Also we have learned from multiple forces and nations, not just the US. Obviously the UK, US, but Israel and others *blah blah blah*  anyhow I still appreciate your point of view and personally I'd like to see the expansion of CANSOFCOM in various ways but hey "It's all about the dollar"

 

[Journeyman]

With a lot of talented young people all trying to get on the same team invariably there will be a lot of men that don't make it.

Notwithstanding our experiences bringing different interpretations, cynically, of "talented"   
...I seriously don't know what you hope to accomplish.

True enough, not everyone gets in.

Will waiving the waiting period do anything beyond adding more people to selection who do not have the maturity, patience, (and dare I say the intellect to see the value of developing skills before moving on) to wait for 'Basic SOF training' (whether CSOR or JTF2)?

Do you see a benefit of having current operators and assaulters focused upon doing the basic trades training that your plan would have downloaded onto the SOF units?

I cannot speak for the poster who said "we're not the US," but I don't think that it was jingoism or patriotism. The simple reality is they have an overwhelming amount of support people with all of their SOF units who could carry the burdens (and unforecast knock-on effects) of supporting these additional unqualified people. That we don't is simple math. Sorry.

You say you want to see CANSOFCOM expansion; fair enough, but I personally don't think that young soldiers spending time learning some military competencies before showing up at the gate is such an onerous burden. If it is, then the change you're proposing to accept these people will likely do nothing but dilute CANSOF.

 

[Untraceable]

Noted Journeyman. Great Answer

 

[medicineman]

Take for instance a USN SEAL - you can join the Navy as a SEAL untrained and go straight to BUD/S right out of Basic...it takes roughly 2 years to get an operator ready for their first deployment, since they have to BUD/S, parachute training, advanced SEAL training, whatever specialty they'll end up with (medic, demolitions, sniping, etc).  Not a big deal in the long and short for them - they have more operators in the SEAL Teams than we have in CANSOFCOM in all likelihood.  Point being, with the amount of folks we have, it's better to take someone with the 2 years of experience in a trade that they can bring to the table, focus their training for the operator side in 6-8 months, and put them out the door to go kick one in...and then be able to go back to the mainstream military in their trade later with that experience to help make them a more rounded soldier.  Also, when you have that experience and time in, you're a known entity at that point...a raw recruit going straight from St Jean to Petawawa or Ottawa really isn't.  When you're that small, you can afford to be picky and choosy.

MM

 

[George Wallace]

.............  The Americans require no such wait for an opportunity to enter any force ( excluding the invite only "tier 1" clubs [DEVGRU] [1st SFOD-D] [SOG/SAD] etc. ) -- and even though they have a larger population are we really willing to bet that they have more TALENTED young men. Now I understand that as a smaller military force we MUST weed out those who think they want it but realize that life isn't a video-game, at the same token though we must also be loosing young motivated men who have the "stuff" and are frustrated because of the requirements or are "stuck" (and I say that in the best way) with a conventional force that they find isn't quenching their thirst to be the best. Thoughts ?

Perhaps the Americans require no such wait time, but the overall caliber of their 'basic' Combat Arms soldiers is not the same as ours.  If a person off the street here joins our Cbt Arms and can not hack it in a minimum of two years from enrolment, then how do you justify them making it in the SOF community?  Our SOF community is currently doing much the same as our everyday Cbt Arms soldiers did in the past, just now they have better support for specialization.  Our Inf and Armd soldiers have often had to operate behind enemy lines, with no specialized SOF training.  Even today, our common everyday Cbt Arms soldiers place top on SOF courses in the US.  At the same time, our SOF soldiers are training with the best around the world, not just the US of A.

Your fixation seems unfounded.

 

[TN2IC]

"Let the hunter, become the hunted"

 

[Journeyman]

Wow. What an awesome, value-laden post.  :

 

[GAP]

Wow. What an awesome, value-laden post.  :

you think?

 

[TN2IC]

Wow. What an awesome, value-laden post.

When you're that small, you can afford to be picky and choosy.

As my little quote stated. I personally, find it relevant to the situation. Not to add wood to the fire. Just trying to justify my quote. Sorry for the miss interruption folks.

Regards,
TN

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I have to increase my screen font size, or get my glasses checked.

I keep reading the title as 'The Walt' and thought it was another thread about the LoF.

 

[Scott]

I have to increase my screen font size, or get my glasses checked.

I keep reading the title as 'The Walt' and thought it was another thread about the LoF.

In time we may have one. Two years is a loooong wait.

 

[MikeL]

Perhaps the Americans require no such wait time, but the overall caliber of their 'basic' Combat Arms soldiers is not the same as ours. 

Just wondering what this is based?  How is any new Pte/Pvt fresh out of DP1/OSUT/AIT any better then the other?  They will both get a baseline knowledge of the job and will build upon that at the unit.

Our SOF community is currently doing much the same as our everyday Cbt Arms soldiers did in the past, just now they have better support for specialization.  Our Inf and Armd soldiers have often had to operate behind enemy lines, with no specialized SOF training. 

Some things may be similar, but I don't see regular Cbt Arms Soldiers conducting the same types of missions SOF, or at least not to the same skill level.  Also,  being "behind enemy lines" doesn't make someone or unit SOF,  not sure why that was added.  Lots of jobs require soldiers to leave friendly bases and advance into enemy held(or suspected) areas.

Even today, our common everyday Cbt Arms soldiers place top on SOF courses in the US.

The only course I can think of that sees Canadians attend on a somewhat regular basis is the US Army Ranger School.  That course is not a SOF course,  it is a leadership course more or less and is open to pers in and out of the SOF community.  I know some Canadians have attended certain parts of the US Army SF Q course,  not sure how many and who gets to attend it.  I am not aware of Canadians attending any of the other US SOCOM unit courses.  Also,  the Canadian units who send soldiers onto the Ranger course will generally be some of the best Soldiers in the unit.  You won't see Pte Bloggins with 1 year in attend the course.


Yes some SOF units in the US Military have a direct entry route, example in the US Army they must first attend Basic Training, AIT(Trade Course, ie Infantry or whatever) followed by Airborne School then onto selection, etc.  Not all who enter this route make it, and they will be sent to a regular unit.  As well lots of Soldiers, Sailers, Marines, Airmen do their time in the regular Army/Navy/Marines/AF then apply for SOF still.  Because some of their SOF community went straight into it more or less, should not diminish their accomplishments or make them "sub-caliber to other nations SOF.  Also,  once they hit their SOF unit they will pick up much more training and learn more from unit training and the guys with experience in their teams. 

Aswell, Untraceable SAD is not a Military unit, it is CIA.

In Canada there is no direct route into SOF,  but 2 years is pretty quick especially when a lot of that is just getting you through your basic and trades training.  Do the 2 years(or more),  get a good baseline knowledge of the Military and your trade, it will benefit you as well as the unit if you make it in. 

 

[George Wallace]

-Skeletor-

Well said.  Clear.  Concise.  To the point.

Just a point; we often brush off our 'basic' Cbt Arms trg and skills as being 'not that great' when looking inwards at ourselves.  When we work with other nations, including the Americans, we then can see that our 'basic' is well above theirs.  That said, every other nation out there is at differing levels when you look at their training, discipline, ethics, initiative, etc.  Some set standards similar to ours.  Some set much lower standards.  On a whole, the standards we set for our Cbt Arms are amongst the highest. 

Personally, I place us with the Aussies and Kiwis when it comes to setting those standards, followed by the US and Brits, for the basic Cbt Arms skills.  I think some will find those five are quite significant when dealing with world affairs......if you haven't already recognized the links.  None of the SOF communities in any these are to be scoffed at.

 

[Armymedic]

Can we finish this conversation with the answer:

A change of policy was tried and the results were less than satisfactory; so it was changed back.