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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Eye In The Sky

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EITS, I should have been clear with my post, which in no way was intended as a dig at you. Rather, without making it clear enough, that there is a larger issue that the CAF can sometimes add a bit of complexity when not needed. I apologize to you if you felt it was a response to you specifically, I’ll take greater care in the future where there is justifiably an element of seriousness and professionalism to one’s comment.

Now, that said, I always found it amusing when more senior NCMs, let’s say, higher ranks than NCOs, would do the wind-up “I’m not an officer! I work for a living!” on some unsuspecting subbie. Ironically, they WERE officers, just warranted, not commissioned, so there’s that.

Interestingly, seeing a recent Canadian news piece about a court martial of a “Navy officer” for sexual assault, assault and uttering threats, I see that it was a PO1. Yes, an officer, but I can’t help but wonder if the article just said ‘officer’ to keep some heat on the current state of concern to more senior officers of the CAF, or just an honest editorial foreshortening of Petty Officer to save space. Additionally, does an RCN Petty Officer have a Warrant, like RCAF and CA WOs/MWOs/CWOs?

A day in the sun must have messed up my sense of humour. My apologies!

And you’re right on the officer side. Cpl rank is a Jnr…NCO. 😁
 

McG

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I’m talking about eliminating degrees altogether. They are justified for all Officers and the burden on the taxpayers isn’t one that should continue to be shouldered IMO.
We don’t need US style WO ranks to do that. The CAF can change the CEOTP regulations to allow an indefinite amount of time to get a degree, and the hard requirement for a degree can remain for promotion to sr officer. Members and officers can already opt out of career advancement, so even someone with a degree would not be obligated to compete for higher rank.

What we would get from US style WO ranks would do more to feed some of the problems that this thread has discussed. People doing the same jobs with different compensation and advancement opportunities in s not good (especially if different demographics become disproportionately represented in one group or another). There will be extraneous administrative barriers to career options (if you are a pilot WO and do get a degree, you still can’t compete for higher jobs without an occupation transfer).
 

TacticalTea

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And WOs are SNCOs 😐
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Verse
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So Sergeant is the only SNCO and anything above is a WO? That doesn't seem like a very useful definition. Especially since the understanding of what falls under ''NCO'' differs greatly amongst even just our NORAD/NATO allies. Common meaning interpretation grants that an NCO is any Officer that is not commissioned, which is how, as an example, the RNZN defines it.

I would favour the conversion of non-commanding officer trades (yes, trades, specifically because those belong in the NCM category) into Specialists (for lateral entry above Private) and Warrants. And then you can use the Sergeant+suffix (or prefix, à la Staff Sergeant) category for NCM leadership roles.

Also while you're at it, correct the historical aberration that is the ''Acting Sub-lieutenant'' rank and replace that with Ensign.

On the question of a common Officer/NCM path, it is probably better for that career choice to be made before they put the combat boots on. The consequences of the Afghan model are foreseeable, and an NCO should never be perceived as a failed officer. Yet that does not preclude a common entry course.

I have long thought it would be interesting, and probably beneficial to have everyone (within a given element, see USN boot camp) go through the same BMQ. Two options follow from this: either those running it as officers are recognized as such and given more responsibilities during the course, or simply move on to a subsequent leadership course at the end of the common phase, such as a single-year program at RMC (See, UK's RMC Sandhurst).

Three birds one stone; you've cut education costs, resolved issues with RMC cadet leadership (by removing three years from the curriculum, cadets exercising leadership do so in a much more limited capacity, and not as institutional figures.), and improved the NCO/NCM/Officer relationship. Plus, thread is back on topic ;P
 
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torg003

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BTW, Ensign isn't a naval rank, it is an army rank (historically), just ask the guard units.;)
 

TacticalTea

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BTW, Ensign isn't a naval rank, it is an army rank (historically), just ask the guard units.;)
It is in French :p

I'd have gone with Midshipman but I don't think that one's acceptable in 2020s Canada. Transition to Ensign follows the same logic of genderlessness and translinguistic standardization that gave us Sailor 1/2/3. (it's also another thing that I can point to the RNZN for)
 

Eye In The Sky

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We don’t need US style WO ranks to do that. The CAF can change the CEOTP regulations to allow an indefinite amount of time to get a degree, and the hard requirement for a degree can remain for promotion to sr officer. Members and officers can already opt out of career advancement, so even someone with a degree would not be obligated to compete for higher rank.

What we would get from US style WO ranks would do more to feed some of the problems that this thread has discussed. People doing the same jobs with different compensation and advancement opportunities in s not good (especially if different demographics become disproportionately represented in one group or another). There will be extraneous administrative barriers to career options (if you are a pilot WO and do get a degree, you still can’t compete for higher jobs without an occupation transfer).

Not everyone who is a pilot is capable of advancing to being a CO, Wing Comd etc. Some of them don’t want to advance, some would be happy to spend their entire career in a cockpit (we have 2 in our fleet that are close to if not over the 10,000hr mark, and Capt’s).

If WO is not a solution, for aircrew trades the RCAF could adopt a system like the Professional Aircrew Spine the RAF has. Mbrs can apply for PA, and if selected they will always work around a operational or training Sqn, and have rank caps. But they also go on a different pay scale so their pay and pension isn’t negatively effected solely because they don’t want to advance and shoot for Wing Comd/WCWO equivalent positions.

The CAF could consider something similar for the operational units in all environments - I would have applied for PA and happily spent my life on an operational Sqn as a Crew Lead, STDs and Trg or similar. But my pension and my wife’s QOL in retirement is a bigger factor in career decisions.

Opting out - that is an option but that doesn’t necessarily mean the operational world will retain that mbr and benefit from their experience.

I guess what I’m advocating for is a way to formalize and separate career technical and operational types from those with a desire to command. To do so in a method which eliminates huge amounts of time and money on university education’s shouldered by tax payers with little to no benefit to said taxpayers.
 
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Halifax Tar

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Additionally, does an RCN Petty Officer have a Warrant, like RCAF and CA WOs/MWOs/CWOs?

Can you expand on "having a warrant" ? Is this an official document/scroll in the RCAF/CA ?

My understanding of the WO/PO1 -> MWO/CPO2 -> CWO/CPO1 ranks is that they are exactly the same just with different titles.
 

Eye In The Sky

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And WOs are SNCOs 😐
Hold On Stop GIF by Crash Test with Rob Huebel and Paul Scheer


😂
 

Eye In The Sky

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Can you expand on "having a warrant" ? Is this an official document/scroll in the RCAF/CA ?

My understanding of the WO/PO1 -> MWO/CPO2 -> CWO/CPO1 ranks is that they are exactly the same just with different titles.

Yes, there is a Warrant. Only CWO/CPO1s receive it. I have a good document on the history of it in PDF I’ll post. The short version of it is “it was thought if every Warrant/Petty Officer 1st Class and above received one it would dilute its value”.

My take on Warrant Officers is similar to NCOs; there are several ranks that are part of the group. Actually, we do the same with Jnr/Snr/General-Flag Officers.

 

OldSolduer

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Can you expand on "having a warrant" ? Is this an official document/scroll in the RCAF/CA ?

My understanding of the WO/PO1 -> MWO/CPO2 -> CWO/CPO1 ranks is that they are exactly the same just with different titles.
You’ve nailed it.

I have a Warrant hanging on my wall. It’s only issued to CWO/CPO1 as far as I know.
 

Edward Campbell

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It has been over a half century (since th mid 1960s) since the Canadian Forces looked, seriously, at its rank structure. I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the world today - the strategic situation, the state of society, technology, etc, etc - and ask ourselves if the current system meets our needs.
 

FSTO

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Sailor 1, 2 & 3 are not legal ranks.

The RCN half assed it and never bothered to make the legal change.
Of course. And if I walk around NDHQ Carling and started called the S1’s Leading Seamen I’d be drawn and quartered amongst the geese at the reflecting pool!
 

daftandbarmy

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Silly Supreme Court Justice.... she just doesn't get the CAF, does she? ;)

Military can't 'lock the doors' and try to fix sexual misconduct alone: Louise Arbour​

'Closed' military challenged by diversity

Arbour said the drive for effective performance has been part of the military's problem.

"Uniformity, homogeneity is very much part of the ease with which they feel they can deliver operationally," she said.

That means it's much easier to be effective "when everybody's the same," and trying to integrate women and underrepresented Canadians into military culture has been a challenge, she said.

The answer is you have to open up, let some external oxygen into your system so that you keep more in pace with how Canadian society has evolved

As a result, "they have had more problems than other sectors of society in incorporating the ideals of diversity into their efficiency models."

The military is also a "closed" system, where recruits join at a young age and spend their careers steeped in tradition and established rhetoric. Senior leadership is also drawn from that pool, without the potential for external recruitment.

"The answer is you have to open up, let some external oxygen into your system so that you keep more in pace with how Canadian society has evolved," she said.

 

rmc_wannabe

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Silly Supreme Court Justice.... she just doesn't get the CAF, does she? ;)

Military can't 'lock the doors' and try to fix sexual misconduct alone: Louise Arbour​

'Closed' military challenged by diversity

Arbour said the drive for effective performance has been part of the military's problem.

"Uniformity, homogeneity is very much part of the ease with which they feel they can deliver operationally," she said.

That means it's much easier to be effective "when everybody's the same," and trying to integrate women and underrepresented Canadians into military culture has been a challenge, she said.

The answer is you have to open up, let some external oxygen into your system so that you keep more in pace with how Canadian society has evolved

As a result, "they have had more problems than other sectors of society in incorporating the ideals of diversity into their efficiency models."

The military is also a "closed" system, where recruits join at a young age and spend their careers steeped in tradition and established rhetoric. Senior leadership is also drawn from that pool, without the potential for external recruitment.

"The answer is you have to open up, let some external oxygen into your system so that you keep more in pace with how Canadian society has evolved," she said.

Everyone that has ever served in a military organization right now....

insanely-idiotic-things-ive-ever-heard.gif
 
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