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PRes - Promotion to Maj without AOC qual

Navy_Pete

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Sure, because you can learn how to be a brigade staff and operate a division sitting in a classroom. In Toronto. You want to train someone how to run a brigade? Do OJT in a brigade.

For context, a friend of mine did staff college in the US, where they were embedded in the staff at Coronado, and the 'final exam' was to actually run the exercise that involved thousands of Marines, air, land and sea assets over a few weeks. Compared to that, AOC and staff college are a joke, and I think we wildly overuse class based/DLN training as a substitute for mentoring/OJT. It's usually not even timed correctly to be immediately applied.

If reg force can promote people to Maj without AOC no reason why it's a hard requirement for reservists. And given that they already operate in small cells somewhat independently with limited support they probably have more real world experience at herding cats for the exercises than you might get as a small part in a great big machine at the 3 divisions, and some of them do more complicated things anyway in their actual full time jobs.
 

daftandbarmy

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If reg force can promote people to Maj without AOC no reason why it's a hard requirement for reservists. And given that they already operate in small cells somewhat independently with limited support they probably have more real world experience at herding cats for the exercises than you might get as a small part in a great big machine at the 3 divisions, and some of them do more complicated things anyway in their actual full time jobs.

Hard agree ;)

This policy will just serve to decapitate the Reserves as few Class A Officers in their 30s/40s have enough time to undertake a course like that while juggling everything else in their lives.

But maybe that's what the cunning plan is all about ;)
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Sure, because you can learn how to be a brigade staff and operate a division sitting in a classroom. In Toronto. You want to train someone how to run a brigade? Do OJT in a brigade.

For context, a friend of mine did staff college in the US, where they were embedded in the staff at Coronado, and the 'final exam' was to actually run the exercise that involved thousands of Marines, air, land and sea assets over a few weeks. Compared to that, AOC and staff college are a joke, and I think we wildly overuse class based/DLN training as a substitute for mentoring/OJT. It's usually not even timed correctly to be immediately applied.

If reg force can promote people to Maj without AOC no reason why it's a hard requirement for reservists. And given that they already operate in small cells somewhat independently with limited support they probably have more real world experience at herding cats for the exercises than you might get as a small part in a great big machine at the 3 divisions, and some of them do more complicated things anyway in their actual full time jobs.
The Army Staff College isn't in Toronto, it's in Kingston. Again, I rest my case 😄. Someone should avoid making comments about something they clearly don't know much about.

The Canadian Army has a multi-million dollar simulation facility they use for their exercises in Kingston.

The Army also sends Officers to foreign staff Colleges. Some members here have attended them as Army Officers 😉.
 

Navy_Pete

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The Army Staff College isn't in Toronto, it's in Kingston. Again, I rest my case 😄. Someone should avoid making comments about something they clearly don't know much about.

The Canadian Army has a multi-million dollar simulation facility they use for their exercises in Kingston.

The Army also sends Officers to foreign staff Colleges. Some members here have attended them as Army Officers 😉.
Cool, thanks for not being condescending when correcting me. /s

And regardless of where it is, a check in the box course that isn't followed up on a posting to do that kind of work is largely still a waste of time, regardless of how fancy the virtual trainer is. Lots of in trade jobs that don't do that kind of work, and during Afg lots of purple trades got employed as Majors doing that kind of job with no training, so again, OJT works.

Actual staff college is still pretty divorced from the real world though, and just a check in the box exercise.
 

Weinie

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Cool, thanks for not being condescending when correcting me. /s

And regardless of where it is, a check in the box course that isn't followed up on a posting to do that kind of work is largely still a waste of time, regardless of how fancy the virtual trainer is. Lots of in trade jobs that don't do that kind of work, and during Afg lots of purple trades got employed as Majors doing that kind of job with no training, so again, OJT works.

Actual staff college is still pretty divorced from the real world though, and just a check in the box exercise.
SCRITS.
 

TangoTwoBravo

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Cool, thanks for not being condescending when correcting me. /s

And regardless of where it is, a check in the box course that isn't followed up on a posting to do that kind of work is largely still a waste of time, regardless of how fancy the virtual trainer is. Lots of in trade jobs that don't do that kind of work, and during Afg lots of purple trades got employed as Majors doing that kind of job with no training, so again, OJT works.

Actual staff college is still pretty divorced from the real world though, and just a check in the box exercise.
I think I am safe to assume that you have not taken AOC. Have you taken JCSP? You are making some definitive comments and I am curious upon what you are basing them? Were these Purple officers the BG Ops O or the TFK G5? I somehow doubt it.

AOC is a transformative course for a Captain. Although they will give many briefings during the course it is not a course about briefing or how to work in an office or directorate in NDHQ. I would tell my students that they needed to develop sound briefing skills to as to be able to get their point across, but that the plan/idea itself had to be sound in the first place. It is not a slide production exercise, although some try to turn it into that. They tend to have to work late when their DS reset them at the Info Brief and they get to start again.

Students arrive with knowledge of their Branch and have at least taken a course at the Combat Team level where they use the Combat Estimate. On AOC they learn the Formal Estimate at the Battle Group level followed by the Operational Planning Process at the Brigade level. At the Battle Group level they learn how to plan as a Commanding Officer and on the CAXs they execute a number of roles. At the Brigade level they will be in a G5 role leading COA development iin addition to opportunites to execute a variety of roles within the Bde to include Bde Comd.

While it is needed for progression for most, it is not a check in the box. Most students come from the field force and are about to be Operations Officers or Adjutants. Many will then be in CMBG HQs or other formation HQs. I have watched former students excelling on CMBG exercises a year after graduation, applying what they have learned in their environment. There are exceptions, of course, and some people receive AOC earlier or later than would be ideal - life if like that sometimes.

There used to be a Staff School in Toronto for Captains from all environments that was focused on how to be a "Staff Officer" that taught writing, briefing etc. It was a casualty of the 90s.

IAOC is different from JCSP in terms of pressure/workload. AOC is somewhat more akin to the RCN's ORO course, although I might give the ORO course the edge in placing the students under pressure. I say this as an army officer that sailed on a fleet staff for one exercise and spent some time in Halifax so maybe I got it wrong.
 

Infanteer

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Sure, because you can learn how to be a brigade staff and operate a division sitting in a classroom. In Toronto. You want to train someone how to run a brigade? Do OJT in a brigade.

Most staff officers in brigade are not AOC qualified (I'd say about 10-25 percent). AOC is really designed to train the leaders within the staff at all levels, from a Bn to a national HQ.

That being said, using it as a promotion control for Reserve personnel seems foolish, as they should be focused at sub-unit and below which does not required the skills and knowledge that AOC provides. That's on the CA and/or occupation with its policies, not on the course.

Compared to that, AOC and staff college are a joke, and I think we wildly overuse class based/DLN training as a substitute for mentoring/OJT. It's usually not even timed correctly to be immediately applied.

Do you have any objective examples of this?

Actual staff college is still pretty divorced from the real world though, and just a check in the box exercise.

Have you been to "actual staff college?"
 

daftandbarmy

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That being said, using it as a promotion control for Reserve personnel seems foolish, as they should be focused at sub-unit and below which does not required the skills and knowledge that AOC provides. That's on the CA and/or occupation with its policies, not on the course.

I recall the month one particular RSS Officer arrived at our unit.

His first communicaiton to me was a caustic email demanding that I attend AOC or be cast into the wilderness, or words to that effect. I believe that a couple of others got a similar, rude, email.

I assume that he trusted the MM entries, which have about as many gaps as a hillbilly's dental work and, of course, politely picking up the phone and asking an 'untermensch' Militia Rat Major a question was clearly not part of the policy manual.

I didn't reply, of course, and let him find out through other sources that I'd been granted an equivalency - ages before - for another course I'd completed.

Thereafter, of course, I regarded him as a dangerous liability which, as it turned out, was a correct assumption that did for him in the end ;)
 
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