Premier Ford To Use "Notwithstanding" Against Education Staff- split fromFreedom Convoy Protests

[Bruce Monkhouse]

QUOTE FROM BRIHARD

The Emergencies Act did not inherently supersede rights. It explicitly remained subject to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That’s right in the Act; it has no Charter override.
The comparison being made is to Doug Ford’s intended use of legislation to trample collective bargaining rights, and his use of the Notwithstanding Clause to do so. Any invocation of the Notwithstanding Clause is explicitly, and by definition, superseding rights- it means the government acknowledges that what they want to do would NOT constitute “reasonable limitations” under s. 1, that can be “demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society”. Doug Ford has in effect said “we will specifically suppress your protected Charter right to protectively bargain, and we know the only way we can do so is by using a mechanism that lets us set that right aside without having to defend our actions legally”.







I was a Union steward/executive for 32 years so I'm certainly not anti-union but folks have forgotten how a strike is supposed to work.

Both sides are supposed to have something to lose, the employer could lose his business and/or the employees could lose their jobs. A happy medium is the best for both sides.

When Govt unions go on strike they do so knowing their jobs will still be waiting for them. I've been on two strikes and knew that my job was never in jeopardy. Compare that to the CAA folk here in Southern Ontario who went on strike and then lost their jobs when CAA closed a bunch of stores who didn't settle.
Both sides lost...

That's a strike, and the kind the Govt shouldn't meddle in. A teachers 'strike' with no possible consequences of job loss, really isn't a strike but more a hostage taking, and I have no issue with the Govt closing it down.
Keep talking....

 

[Navy_Pete]

I was a Union steward/executive for 32 years so I'm certainly not anti-union but folks have forgotten how a strike is supposed to work.

Both sides are supposed to have something to lose, the employer could lose his business and/or the employees could lose their jobs. A happy medium is the best for both sides.

When Govt unions go on strike they do so knowing their jobs will still be waiting for them. I've been on two strikes and knew that my job was never in jeopardy. Compare that to the CAA folk here in Southern Ontario who went on strike and then lost their jobs when CAA closed a bunch of stores who didn't settle.
Both sides lost...

That's a strike, and the kind the Govt shouldn't meddle in. A teachers 'strike' with no possible consequences of job loss, really isn't a strike but more a hostage taking, and I have no issue with the Govt closing it down.
Keep talking....

Can't say I agree; a strike is fundamentally the workers exerting pressure on the company.

In private terms that is financial pressure because they lose money, plus reputational pressure in some cases. For people employed by whatever level of government, the pressure is fundamentally political.

If you take away that pressure point, you kill their leverage, and they are already at a disadvantage. Doing that without requiring something like an independent arbitrator or something and you bascially force them to accept whatever offer the government puts on the table. THe ones that are most likely to 'leave if they don't like it are usually the most competent who have other options.

Given how critical education is to general society, I think it's in our best interest to give the teachers some barganing power, and if there is going to be a situation where they do go on strike require a specific back to work legislation with some kind of remedy to replace that right they removed.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Can't say I agree; a strike is fundamentally the workers exerting pressure on the company.

But there is supposed to be reciprocal pressure on the workers. That the company might close down and/or move.
Then fruitful talks can happen that work for both sides.

 

[brihard]

I was a Union steward/executive for 32 years so I'm certainly not anti-union but folks have forgotten how a strike is supposed to work.

Both sides are supposed to have something to lose, the employer could lose his business and/or the employees could lose their jobs. A happy medium is the best for both sides.

When Govt unions go on strike they do so knowing their jobs will still be waiting for them. I've been on two strikes and knew that my job was never in jeopardy. Compare that to the CAA folk here in Southern Ontario who went on strike and then lost their jobs when CAA closed a bunch of stores who didn't settle.
Both sides lost...

That's a strike, and the kind the Govt shouldn't meddle in. A teachers 'strike' with no possible consequences of job loss, really isn't a strike but more a hostage taking, and I have no issue with the Govt closing it down.
Keep talking....

Well, for one, this isn’t teachers. It’s support staff making vastly less, and in many cases not enough to live off of.

Second, there’s absolutely nothing saying the legitimacy of a strike is derived from both sides having something to lose. Those striking are losing something anyway; it’s highly unlikely that strike pay will cover what they would have earned (paltry as it is).

A strike is the labour side saying that the terms and conditions under which the employer is willing to employ them are unacceptable to them collectively. The ability to do so collectively is what makes it effective.

The government has several things it could do rather than resort to the Notwithstanding Clause and trampling their Charter-protected right to collectively bargain. I think Ford is picking a much bigger fight with organized labour than he recognized or intended. He still has time to walk this back, but I don’t think he will.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Well, for one, this isn’t teachers. It’s support staff making vastly less, and in many cases not enough to live off of.

Second, there’s absolutely nothing saying the legitimacy of a strike is derived from both sides having something to lose. Those striking are losing something anyway; it’s highly unlikely that strike pay will cover what they would have earned (paltry as it is).

A strike is the labour side saying that the terms and conditions under which the employer is willing to employ them are unacceptable to them collectively. The ability to do so collectively is what makes it effective.

The government has several things it could do rather than resort to the Notwithstanding Clause and trampling their Charter-protected right to collectively bargain. I think Ford is picking a much bigger fight with organized labour than he recognized or intended. He still has time to walk this back, but I don’t think he will.

I know who it is, I have a Daughter who's an ECE, and I know what she makes, not nearly enough. But to say it's not enough to live on is untrue, not everyone gets the condo/hot tub job.

The strikers aren't "losing" anything, you think they should get paid for NOT providing a service?? They are witholding the item that gets them that pay, labour. Except in the real world, a company is also not making money from the loss of that labour, so it behooves them to talk also.
And if they can't work something out you get an empty factory, bankrupt owners, and unemployed workers. That's not going to happen here.

There's no urgency in a Govt strike, Govt saves money, labour knows they will go back to their jobs, see ya' in three years.
I repeat, keep talking.....

 

[Furniture]

If the support staff go on strike does that mean the school close?

The economy is not doing so hot right now, how many parents can take time off work to look after their children while the school staff strike? How many businesses struggling to get staff right now can stay open if a portion of their current staff jave to take time off work?

Maybe the Government has looked at the forecasts, and is making the move they think is best for Ontario.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If the support staff go on strike does that mean the school close?

The economy is not doing so hot right now, how many parents can take time off work to look after their children while the school staff strike? How many businesses struggling to get staff right now can stay open if a portion of their current staff jave to take time off work?

Maybe the Government has looked at the forecasts, and is making the move they think is best for Ontario.

And a good union will know exactly how to leverage those fears in their favour....

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Talking to my ex today [school Secretary] and she said her school would stay open. It's actually unfortunate for those workers witholding labour because thats the leverage they have, school closures.
Hence the huge wage gap between teachers and everyone else, when they walk they are closed........all parents notice, not just those who's young 'un's need extra help.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Most, possibly all, public service jobs should not have the right to strike. It was a mistake to grant it. What's missing are prices (revenues and costs), which are required to correctly calibrate incentives. The employers are never really constrained by revenues, and their incentives are mainly to acquiesce and kick the funding problem to someone else.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Happiest day in Corrections was 'giving' back the right to strike. Granting it to us was a screw job by the very Union I belonged too.
Arbitration baby!!

 

[Halifax Tar]

Teachers should never strike, it turns the public against them.

What they should do is work to rule.

 

[brihard]

Teachers should never strike, it turns the public against them.

What they should do is work to rule.

Teachers aren’t part of what’s currently happening in Ontario, just FYI. This is all the support staff. They don’t make close to what teachers make.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Teachers aren’t part of what’s currently happening in Ontario, just FYI. This is all the support staff. They don’t make close to what teachers make.

Ah! Sorry, I must have missed that slowly backs away

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Teachers aren’t part of what’s currently happening in Ontario, just FYI. This is all the support staff. They don’t make close to what teachers make.

And things a lot of people dont know, like, while the teachers still get paid 12 months a year, a lot of the support staff get "laid off" every summer and have to collect EI.

 

[PMedMoe]

the teachers still get paid 12 months a year

Not quite.

"In Ontario, teachers only paid for the 194 days of school each year (including non-instructional PA days).

For full time tenured teachers, they are paid five-sixths of their salary each pay day (typically once every two weeks), with the remaining one-sixth withheld over the course of the 10 months of the school year. The remaining one-sixth is paid out as a lump sum during the end of the school year (this represents the “summer pay”)."

Source: Mike Chandler Secondary teacher York RDSB

 

[brihard]

Apologies for adding to the tangent (maybe we’re due for a thread split?). I stumbled on this commentary this morning and found it insightful.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1587548059000770560

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Not quite.

"In Ontario, teachers only paid for the 194 days of school each year (including non-instructional PA days).

For full time tenured teachers, they are paid five-sixths of their salary each pay day (typically once every two weeks), with the remaining one-sixth withheld over the course of the 10 months of the school year. The remaining one-sixth is paid out as a lump sum during the end of the school year (this represents the “summer pay”)."

Source: Mike Chandler Secondary teacher York RDSB

They still get paid....the rest is semantics.
A lot of the support staff get unemployment.

No pay....

 

[daftandbarmy]

And things a lot of people dont know, like, while the teachers still get paid 12 months a year, a lot of the support staff get "laid off" every summer and have to collect EI.

Kind of like Class B?

 

[Navy_Pete]

They still get paid....the rest is semantics.
A lot of the support staff get unemployment.

No pay....

I didn't realize that, thanks. I just assumed they had their pay averaged out over 12 months, and the summer was well deserved 'time off' but also when they did things like professional development.

Before joining the mob I did seasonal work for a bit; it was okay if you could pick up work in the off season (winter) but was tough otherwise.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I didn't realize that, thanks. I just assumed they had their pay averaged out over 12 months, and the summer was well deserved 'time off' but also when they did things like professional development.

Before joining the mob I did seasonal work for a bit; it was okay if you could pick up work in the off season (winter) but was tough otherwise.

Teachers get "paid", the janitor staff work (Dad was a high school janitor) to deep clean areas that are normally in use, plus their holidays, and pretty much everyone else are laid off and have to go through that EI bullshit.

Which means technically you're supposed to be looking for work, and they have played hard ball with folks traveling before as they "weren't looking".

EDIT: this is Ontario I'm discussing, I have no idea on other Provinces.