Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]

[Sub_Guy]

Good thing there wasn't a war that required full mobilization to start on one those weekends to inconvenience you...

Come on, 99% of the weekend phone calls are for bogus events.  We all know that if shit starts going down on a Saturday that we can expect to be contacted.  However we do have high readiness crews and 12 hour standby folks to deal with these weekend wars, they’ll be contacted first.

 

[winnipegoo7]

Come on, 99% of the weekend phone calls are for bogus events.  We all know that if crap starts going down on a Saturday that we can expect to be contacted.  However we do have high readiness crews and 12 hour standby folks to deal with these weekend wars, they’ll be contacted first.

+1

Would full mobilization really be done just by cell phone? Why not utilize radio, television, email, have the MP's go door to door to notify people, etc. Cell phones aren't the only form of communication.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

+1

Would full mobilization really be done just by cell phone? Why not utilize radio, television, email, have the MP's go door to door to notify people, etc. Cell phones aren't the only form of communication.

Fully agree.

Let's face it, with the ubiquitous, 24/7, in your face news reporting on all possible platforms of our current world, is anyone really going to miss the fact that a major event requiring the CAF right away has occurred? And wouldn't we all rush back to our post, or at the very least contact our home base to find out the plan for the unit we serve in, without the CAF even having to bother trying to contact us?

If such major event took place, I don't think that the few of us who might be out of connection with the world on that specific day and fail to report in would make any difference in the outcome.  ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If your boss is calling you on weekends for unforecasted or stupid crap, you have a leadership problem, not a phone problem.

You're 'assuming' things;  if someone from W Ops calls me they aren't my boss, but they might be looking for someone for a last minute flight functional or test flight.  Regardless...there is a STANDBY crew on call from after duty Friday until morning brief Monday.  That is their job, not mine on the weekends I am not on standby.  If that wasn't the case, why am I allowed to go to say, Toronto, or Ottawa for the weekend if I am not on standby?  Not only am I allowed, I don't even have to tell anyone.  Because I am not on duty and not expected back to the Sqn until Mon morning.  The CAF Leave Policy Manual doesn't agree with your suggestion we are all 'on duty' 24/7/365. 

If you willfully ignore any sort of work phone call after 4 pm, then I'd suggest you have somewhat of a dedication issue and that member should consider transferring to the PRes and work Class A. We're paid a salary for 24/7/365. If you don't want phone calls on weekends, put in a leave pass and make the CO cancel it to bring you in. When they get tired of constant weekend leave passes, can take that opportunity to address work/family balance with your chain of command. Being passive-aggressive and ignoring your phone isn't helpful.

- NO ONE in the CAF is 'on duty' 24/7/365.  No one. 
- IAW the CAF Leave Policy Manual, weekend leave passes are not required.  At my Wing, the OSS Orderly Room (Operations Support Sqn) do not process weekend leave passes because all it does is create paperwork that they don't have time for. 
- some operational units are very busy and also not manned 100%.  the mission goes on, however.  When you have a Sqn that has 1 crew deployed, 1 crew getting ready to deploy, and 1 crew on leave from deployment for several years, the people who aren't *deployed/deployment leave/deployment work ups* are the ones holding the Standby crew stuff 99% of the time.  If you are either a (1) crew commander (2) TACNAV or (3) LEAD AES Op, you are a rare commodity and find yourself in demand more than you can likely imagine.  Those are all required crew positions and appointed by the CO; no everyone holds those appointments and you can't just 'appointment more people' to flush the numbers out.

Here's a little snippet of time for you, you can compare your personal op tempo over a 6 month period for comparison to what I and others at my Sqn lived at one point not long ago:

Jan - Mar:  deployed, CJOC Op.
Apr: post-deployment leave
May:  reintegration training, ex prep, out of province for Ex MG/MF 2nd half of the month.
June:  away on Ex MG/MF 1st half of the month.  home less than a week, deployed OUTCAN, CJOC Op.

My crew finished off that year deployed again Oct - Dec and into Jan.  I think we put in our fair share of 'duty weekends' over that time. 

I've got ZERO issue not answering my phone on weekends I am not on the *weekend* standby/Ready crew.  If WWIII is going to happen, I don't suspect it will be a 'surprise' that will depend on a handful of Cdn LRP crews to getting into work before a Monday morning... :.  Whether you believe it, or not, the GoC and RCAF are getting their pound of flesh out of the crews on Sqn.  They earn their non-duty weekends, full stop.  It ain't being passive aggressive; it's protecting the time off you do have because you don't get bags and bags of it.

 

[PuckChaser]

Jan - Mar:  deployed, CJOC Op.
Apr: post-deployment leave
May:  reintegration training, ex prep, out of province for Ex MG/MF 2nd half of the month.
June:  away on Ex MG/MF 1st half of the month.  home less than a week, deployed OUTCAN, CJOC Op.

My crew finished off that year deployed again Oct - Dec and into Jan.  I think we put in our fair share of 'duty weekends' over that time. 

I get it, you're the busiest guy in the CAF. I'd show you my schedule for the last 3 years but having a cyber-penis measuring contest isn't constructive. None of it changes the fact that your boss can lawfully order you to come in on your weekend off. Hiding from them deliberately is a pretty greasy way to manage your work/rest cycle.

Whether its right or not to call someone in who has been away for most of the year is a completely different discussion.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

End of the day people should be reasonably contactable. Doesn't mean instantly, doesn't mean 5 minute voicemail turn around.

I'd argue an email address should be sufficient. I'll check it at some point in the day and if it can't wait till tomorrow, then I will respond. I would hazard a guess that 90% of the calls that intrude into the personal time of our troops aren't as important or critical as they seem at the time.

There's very few operations that are significant enough they can't wait for the troops to get in the next day that won't be significant enough for them know about it either before the weekend starts or from the news. I've seen very few large scale deployments kick off with less than 48 hours prior notice. The deployments within that time frame I have seen typically involve groups of people already designated high readiness and who are waiting for that call.

The general culture demographic we are recruiting value personal time, they value it more than pay increases. If we abuse the authority we have to intrude into their personal time for frivolous reasons, then we are engineering our own recruiting/rention issues.

 

[CountDC]

There's a big difference between the chain of command posting personal contact info as a "de facto" duty line, and members providing the CoC with reasonably efficient methods of contacting them in an emergency. 

There are times when any CAF member might be needed on short notice, and that requirement is built into the compensation structure. It might be a whole unit activated in response to a DOMOP, or perhaps an individual is required to issue out an essential piece of kit to get a soldier out the door on an important last minute task or course.  Maybe a unit appears on your base unexpectedly (due to some admin SNAFU) expecting to draw ammunition and rations and special arrangements need to be made.  Maybe the MSE Op scheduled for that 7pm pickup gets food poisoning, and a replacement needs to be found.  The possibilities are endless. 

For the issue of an essential piece of kit, unit showing to draw ammo, rats, etc that is what duty pers are for and they should have a DND issued phone so no need of a personal phone.  it comes back again to there is no regulation that requires a member to have a phone or if they do have one to be monitoring it 24/7 just in case. 

When we activated the our Territorial Defense Battalion for the 2013 Alberta floods, telephone service was down in my neighborhood, but internet was working.  So, I was able to get the word out via e-mail and Facebook instant messages.  Additionally, our RV was not our normal place of duty (the Armory) as access to the downtown core was restricted at that point, so there was a requirement to communicate the new location.  The primary reason this all worked was because most members made reasonable efforts to make themselves "reachable" to their CoC using a variety of channels.  If all comms methods had been down, we might have reverted to visiting each member's house, but why would we when there was a viable alternative?

I am not sure how this works in the other services, but in the Army virtually every unit is implicated in the DOMOPS framework at some level, which means that there is a requirement for units to conduct several fanouts per year.  Why would you force your supervisor to make special arrangements to reach you (ie visiting your house) when a short telephone call, e-mail, or text message would have sufficed?  Theoretically, we are required to achieve 100% accountability on these fanouts. However, in the reserve world we tend to cut them off around the 90-95% mark because we recognize that a portion of our soldiers will be truly unreachable, and I consider that perfectly acceptable for part-timers who for the most part, aren't actually on duty at the time of the fanout. I fully acknowledge that there will be circumstances when RegF members will be unreachable as well, such as leave in a remote location.  Even in that circumstance however, members are required to provide some form of contact information on their leave pass in the event their leave is cancelled. 

and when you did that we also did a contact of all of our members to see if they were available if we were requested to assist you.  We also used all means possible to reach everyone we could.  That is not the point here though.  the point is that we are not required to have a cell phone and provide the number to anyone if we don't want to.  Supervisor visiting is a call they will have to make. if the person is that important the unit can not possibly function without them then they should issue the mbr a DND phone.

Unless your fan out is during normal work hours then the RegF mbrs are not on duty at the time either.

Contact is provided on the leave pass in case needed such as the CO cancelling leave but again the member is not required to be sitting on the phone waiting for the call. The contact may very well be one that the mbr will check in with on occasions when able as they happen to be going backcountry camping where cell phone comms is not possible. 

The idea of whether the CoC should contact you outside of working hours is a totally different question, but ultimately that is up to the CoC, not the individual.  There are lots of strategies to reduce the requirement to bother members outside of regular duty hours such as sound forward planning by unit leadership, and the establishment of rotating duty structures (duty officer, duty NCO, duty clerk, duty tech, etc.) with DND mobile phones to support the most common off-hours requirements, and a well-led unit will take full advantage of these.  However, at the end of the day, any CAF member could be called to duty at any time.

Certainly the chain of command can try to contact outside working hours by the means of communication provided.  They can not order someone to get a cell phone so they can contact them whenever they want nor are members expected to be sitting waiting at whatever means of comms they have provided.  Call, leave a message and I will get back to you when I can.  As I am on a 72 hour recall it may be a couple days before I respond if it isn't a real emergency. 

 

[RCPalmer]

For the issue of an essential piece of kit, unit showing to draw ammo, rats, etc that is what duty pers are for and they should have a DND issued phone so no need of a personal phone.  it comes back again to there is no regulation that requires a member to have a phone or if they do have one to be monitoring it 24/7 just in case. 


and when you did that we also did a contact of all of our members to see if they were available if we were requested to assist you.  We also used all means possible to reach everyone we could.  That is not the point here though.  the point is that we are not required to have a cell phone and provide the number to anyone if we don't want to.  Supervisor visiting is a call they will have to make. if the person is that important the unit can not possibly function without them then they should issue the mbr a DND phone.

Unless your fan out is during normal work hours then the RegF mbrs are not on duty at the time either.

Contact is provided on the leave pass in case needed such as the CO cancelling leave but again the member is not required to be sitting on the phone waiting for the call. The contact may very well be one that the mbr will check in with on occasions when able as they happen to be going backcountry camping where cell phone comms is not possible. 
Certainly the chain of command can try to contact outside working hours by the means of communication provided.  They can not order someone to get a cell phone so they can contact them whenever they want nor are members expected to be sitting waiting at whatever means of comms they have provided.  Call, leave a message and I will get back to you when I can.  As I am on a 72 hour recall it may be a couple days before I respond if it isn't a real emergency.

A few things:

-I never said that it was lawful or a good idea to order a CAF member (RegF or PRes) to purchase a mobile phone, but it is a slippery slope.  Would it be acceptable for a CAF member to have no off-duty contact info at all (e.g. no mobile or home phone, and no fixed address because the member plans to couch surf and keep their kit in their locker in the unit lines)?  At some point, the CoC would impose some restrictions.  In the case above, the member might be ordered to live in the shacks. 

-I had mentioned the utility of duty staff in mitigating many unplanned requirements to order CAF members back to work, but pointed out scenarios where those would not be sufficient.

-You are correct that no member of the CAF is on duty 24/7, but RegF members are subject to the CSD 24/7 (QR&O 102.01) and consequently subject to lawful orders 24/7.  Such an order could include a geographic restriction on travel without a leave pass (as currently done by some Base Commanders), or conceivably some sort of protocol requiring members be contactable within a certain amount of time. 

-In a period of high readiness, or a situation where an unplanned task might be anticipated, a commander might impose a control measure on members to decrease the turnaround time on a recall, such as "carry your cell phone on you, or check in with the Duty Center every 2 hours", or "I might need you to drive a truck from A to B tonight, stay reachable".   

-Are you saying that as a member of the RegF you have no obligation to participate in a fanout outside of working hours?  Good luck with that...

-All of this boils down to the fact that it is up to the CoC set the basic duty conditions to include working hours and any return to duty provisions, not the member. 

 

[Blackadder1916]

-I never said that it was lawful or a good idea to order a CAF member (RegF or PRes) to purchase a mobile phone, but it is a slippery slope.  Would it be acceptable for a CAF member to have no off-duty contact info at all (e.g. no mobile or home phone, and no fixed address because the member plans to couch surf and keep their kit in their locker in the unit lines).  At some point, the CoC would impose some restrictions.  In the case above, the member might be ordered to live in the shacks. 
. . .

Grid Reference?

Okay, a little bit of a joke there, but only a little bit.  Way back in the dark ages, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and cell phones came in suitcases or were only seen as a space-age gadget hard mounted in automobiles in movies, the question was also asked.  Personally I knew of only one individual who gave his residence address as a grid reference (actually, it was a rural route number) because he lived (originally in a tent) on a plot of land on which he intended to build a house by himself (it took a few years).  When asked for a phone number, he reluctantly gave the number of a neighbour (who lived a mile or so away from his place) who, in the event of an emergency could pass a message to him.  Another story of unusual accommodations was told to me by a friend who had previously been an infantry officer.  It was brought to his attention (and the CO's) that one of the soldiers in his platoon had given the address of a local KFC when he moved out of shacks.  It hadn't been noticed but when the manager of the chicken restaurant complained that the soldier (guess which regiment  :nod had set up a lean-to hooch on the back of the building and was living there, military authorities had to step in.  Naturally the intellectual capability of the soldier was questioned.

And while not a Canadian reference, a classmate and friend when I was down in Texas on course lived in a fifth wheel trailer.  During the six months of the course he moved it three times, not counting the several weeks that he squatted in the parking lot at the BOQ.  While I was down there on TD, the Americans on course had been PCSed (posted there) so his trailer was his permanent residence.

 

[BDTyre]

Grid Reference?

Okay, a little bit of a joke there, but only a little bit.  Way back in the dark ages, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and cell phones came in suitcases or were only seen as a space-age gadget hard mounted in automobiles in movies, the question was also asked.  Personally I knew of only one individual who gave his residence address as a grid reference (actually, it was a rural route number) because he lived (originally in a tent) on a plot of land on which he intended to build a house by himself (it took a few years).  When asked for a phone number, he reluctantly gave the number of a neighbour (who lived a mile or so away from his place) who, in the event of an emergency could pass a message to him.  Another story of unusual accommodations was told to me by a friend who had previously been an infantry officer.  It was brought to his attention (and the CO's) that one of the soldiers in his platoon had given the address of a local KFC when he moved out of shacks.  It hadn't been noticed but when the manager of the chicken restaurant complained that the soldier (guess which regiment  :nod had set up a lean-to hooch on the back of the building and was living there, military authorities had to step in.  Naturally the intellectual capability of the soldier was questioned.

And while not a Canadian reference, a classmate and friend when I was down in Texas on course lived in a fifth wheel trailer.  During the six months of the course he moved it three times, not counting the several weeks that he squatted in the parking lot at the BOQ.  While I was down there on TD, the Americans on course had been PCSed (posted there) so his trailer was his permanent residence.

We had a guy who at one point lived in what I can only describe as an SRO above the Cambie pub in Gastown bordering on the downtown eastside of Vancouver. Later, after deployment, he "released" (or attempted to), went home to the US, then came back to the regiment. He asked me if I could take his kit and follow him home (he was on his bicycle) and that it was only a few blocks. Sure enough, we go around the corner and up a block. I pull into the alley thinking he lives above one of the commercial units. Nope...it was the van parked on the street. He at least had a cell phone the whole time, but definitely no fixed address. He pretty much disappeared after that.

 

[Haggis]

A long time ago, when I first joined "The Militia", our RSS WO, a very redneck VanDoo, was posted on IR. He lived in a camper behind the Armoury.  On the unit nominal roll, his "home number" was the unit phone number and his home address was the unit address with the suffix "Apartment in Rear".

 

[CountDC]

A few things:

-I never said that it was lawful or a good idea to order a CAF member (RegF or PRes) to purchase a mobile phone, but it is a slippery slope.  Would it be acceptable for a CAF member to have no off-duty contact info at all (e.g. no mobile or home phone, and no fixed address because the member plans to couch surf and keep their kit in their locker in the unit lines)?  At some point, the CoC would impose some restrictions.  In the case above, the member might be ordered to live in the shacks. 

The solution used in the one case I am aware of that the member did not provide a phone number was simple.  The mbr was required to make contact with the unit every X hours when put on shorter recall notice.  During the regular time it was a given he would be seen at the regular reporting time of 0800hr.  Did have a case of an officer ordered to report to base accms to see about some quarters rather than sleeping in the gym.

-You are correct that no member of the CAF is on duty 24/7, but RegF members are subject to the CSD 24/7 (QR&O 102.01) and consequently subject to lawful orders 24/7.  Such an order could include a geographic restriction on travel without a leave pass (as currently done by some Base Commanders), or conceivably some sort of protocol requiring members be contactable within a certain amount of time. 

-In a period of high readiness, or a situation where an unplanned task might be anticipated, a commander might impose a control measure on members to decrease the turnaround time on a recall, such as "carry your cell phone on you, or check in with the Duty Center every 2 hours", or "I might need you to drive a truck from A to B tonight, stay reachable".   

check in is the one valid.  Carry my cell phone, nope, my cell phone for personal usage and if I don't want to carry it I won't.  Maybe I promised to let my kid play with it that day.  Stay reachable - yep, by calling in every 2 hours.  Having a rank or position does not bestow upon you the authority to order someone to use their personal items for military usage. I usually ask the member if they will be reachable on their cell phone rather than trying to issue an order I shouldn't be.  Most times they will say yes but on occasion have had to work out the member calling me at a set time. Not a matter of them making things difficult for me, it is me making things easy for them (we used to call it taking care of the troops).  Mind you the original question of this chain had nothing to do with any of that so we seem to be wading into thickness that has no bearing.

-Are you saying that as a member of the RegF you have no obligation to participate in a fanout outside of working hours?  Good luck with that...

No, I am saying I am obligated to participate within the current directions. I am not at a high ready unit.  I am on 72 hours notice.  I do not have to carry my phone or answer it.  My chain of command can call it anytime they want, leave a message and if it is important I will get back to them when I get the message.  Depending on what I am doing it may take some time as I am not under any restrictions.  Maybe I went camping and do not have cell contact until Sunday, maybe I just decide to turn off my phone until Sunday, maybe my son dropped my cell phone into the a glass of water.

I had plenty of luck with it the one time I wasn't at work for the fan out as there was absolutely nothing saying we were required to be available other than the regular 72 hours notice to move and I was at work within that period. Also had luck when my supervisor called my work cell to pass on a change in exercise instructions after hours and opted to not leave a message thinking I should have been jumping to answer it.  He learned the difference between a work phone and duty phone and I am sure is a better officer for it.

-All of this boils down to the fact that it is up to the CoC set the basic duty conditions to include working hours and any return to duty provisions, not the member.

Mostly agree except adding within regulations and the restrictions of the members life style.  If they do not have a phone then figure it out just like we did in the past. If that means the member has to find a way to call the unit every 24 hours then by all means set that instead of trying to get them to obtain a cell phone.  just don't set up a system that comes through as punishment as that can come back to bite when they redress it.

We are all reachable in one way or the other, it boils down to the chain of command knowing how their members are reachable and ensuring they have a method in place that enables them to work within it.  Sometimes it may be a phone call to mommy but if that is the case then work with it.  (yes I have called peoples mother in order to reach them.  Usually doesn't take long for them to call back and is probably the quickest way to reach the difficult cases.)

I think we are mainly in agreement that the chain of command has ultimate control on recalling and contacting members.  The chain is the ones that will set up the final system.  The only real point is that the chain can not rely on cell phones and social media as not everyone is reachable that way. They must include planning for the other members which includes the possibility that members are not always instantly available after hours as we do have life's to live and are not tied to our phones.  Expecting people to always be available on their cell is equivalent to expecting them to be home all the time if they have a land line. Neither is reasonable.  They also have to be mindful about issuing work phones and designating them as duty phones (see LPM on that one). 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't get it but I'll continue to be sarcastic, you're the busiest guy in the CAF LRP Crews were extremely busy and free time was in short supply during Oct 2014 - Dec 2017 because of a sustained op. I'd show you my schedule for the last 3 years but having a cyber-penis measuring contest isn't constructive. None of it changes the fact that your boss can lawfully order you to come in on your weekend off. Hiding from them deliberately is a pretty greasy way to manage your work/rest cycle.

Hopefully you'll see my point now.  I used myself as an example, but everyone on my crew, and every crew was like that, just at different points in time/during the year.  I don't blame anyone of them, or even consider thoughts like "man, those guys should go Class A, what a bunch of disloyal shitburgers" for turning their ringer off if they did on Fri night because I know how exhausted people were getting over the months.

Yup, you're right.  One of my bosses could call, or attempt to call me, on a non-duty weekend to tell me I have to go to the Sqn.  I'm also right, and that if I (a) was half way across Canada and couldn't make it or (B) didn't have my phone turned on, there isn't much that could be done unless I didn't show up at the next time I was expected back at the Sqn when I left Friday, which would be 0800 Monday. 

Whether its right or not to call someone in who has been away for most of the year is a completely different discussion.

Sometimes, you're the only horse left in the stable...

 

[CampCricket]

The MCpl is using text messages for routine/non urgent matters that I would not even warrant an email or a phone call for. It’s a control thing. She needs instant feed back on where her subordinates are what tasks they are currently working on. If she doesn’t get a reply in 5 minutes, she hunts her subordinates down. Also, if they respond to any other texts not from her, she writes them up for personal use of cell phones during working hours. Some how she wants her staff to carry their personal phones like a leash but know when she is communicating and not respond to their phones if she is not at the other end. To me, not only is this bad management but is against DND policy. If the member needed to respond immediately, then they would be issued a phone. Also, this is a security issue as DND business is being communicated on non secure formats... a big no-no 10 years ago... so I was wanting to know if the technology has changed so much that security is no longer an issue. Any real policy on this matter.

 

[CountDC]

Just saw your post. 

may be just me but I would ignore my cell phone for a day, maybe even leave it home and let her try to push charges. 

For security - it would depend on the information that is relayed.  If she is transmitting secure information then certainly.  For example I have had requests for members information including service numbers, phone numbers, addresses to be sent to outside DND email addresses and refused to do so as it is Protected A information that is not supposed to be sent outside.