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Military wins no matter what after election

Anyone want to start a "I don't like any of the Other Options" party

  Me -- I'm voting with my feet...
48Highlander said:
you're right, the liberals only gave away the 407 and ontario hydro.

Sorry, that was the Mike Harris Conservatives.

And lest we forget, the federal Conservatives got rid of the Chinook, Twin Huey and Kiowa helicopters and replaced them all with the Griffon (anyone remember MND Marcel Masse?).

48Highlander said:
you're right, the liberals only gave away the 407 and ontario hydro.

The Liberals gave away the 407 and Ontario Hydro?

That was Mike Harris, what party was he with again? He was also the same genius that decided to cut taxes will running a deficit - that worked well.
KevinB said:
Would you rather a personable con man?

I would rather a leader that didn't feel that the definition of marriage is the most pressing issue in our country.
mz589 said:
The Liberals gave away the 407 and Ontario Hydro?

That was Mike Harris, what party was he with again? He was also the same genius that decided to cut taxes will running a deficit - that worked well.

That's why Ontario has been the hardest province for the conservatives to win over - we're still reeling from the "Common Sense" Revolution.
Michael Dorosh said:
That party ceased to exist, remember?   When Kim Campbell was thrown out and the party was reduced to just two seats in Parliament?   They limped along then merged with the Reform party to create a new party.   I can't speak for their integrity, but I think the "old" party was properly punished even if its individual members weren't...

The policy differences are minimal and Mulroney's fingerprints were all over the merger between the PC's and Reform/C-CRAP/Alliance. Its also interesting to note that the formation of the "new"party itself was brokered on a false promise by Peter Mackay not to merge the party. He signed a document (which turned out to be not legally binding) in order to gain the votes carried by David Orchard's delegates in the last PC leadership convention.

At the end of it all, it doesn't really matter, Harper is unacceptable east of Manitoba, it'll be another Liberal minority.
midgetcop said:
I would rather a leader that didn't feel that the definition of marriage is the most pressing issue in our country.

that's important to some people, that's why i vote liberal and so do some of the others
RHFC said:
that's important to some people, that's why i vote liberal and so do some of the others

I agree that it is. And I also vote liberal. 

But that's *past* us now, and there are other issues that need to be addressed.

I never knew gender was classified as its own "race".
I'm learning soooo much from the forums here. ;D

Jeezz, I think this thread is mis-labled.
Should read - 'Lets Bash the Conservatives formerly known as CRAP'.  :(

I would think that with an election almost 50 Days Off on the Horizon that a bunch of intelligent, for the most part other than the odd Ninja Sniper, Army types would be at least willing to give them a fair shake.  :-[   
Especially when most bones of contention are based on Second-hand wordings of reporters - who in this country are Ohh so accurate - sure, a Wheeled APC looks like a Tank to me - uh huh.

They have not even officially released their Def Policy yet - which I agree is letting it lapse a bit and giving the Fiberals some 'Hidden agenda' ammo - but most comments/points of contention are more of a jump-on-the-Bashwagon variety than truly grounded in reason.

Rec'd a call from a 'Very Polite' CPC staffer yesterday who was doing some polling, and when she asked what Issues were important to me - Defence was Top of the List.
She advised they would be releasing a Defence Policy very soon.

"O'Connor . . . said airlift is now his party's No. 1 defence priority:salute:
There's going to be substantially more for the Armed Forces - in magnitute different."

Well, wait and see what they offer or put forth before you bring out the clubs.  :argument:

Don't see the Fiberals saying airlift is now our party's No. 1 defence priority,
especially when both deployments - which need to cross a min of 3000nm of Ocean - or even domestic redeployments involve Strategic Distances, not tactical hops.
And heaven help you if you even utter Strategic Airlift - Hercules is sacrosanct. 
(Wouldn't want to actually be able to pull our weight in the world and provide rapid disaster relief - you know for the Quake that will Never Never Ever hit BC,  :dontpanic:  , the floods in Winnipeg or Ice Storms in Que/Ont that NEVER EVER require us to Beg a lift from our US allies who we continually like to Bash.  Or even provide a Vanguard force to a region before things either get out of hand, or blow over by the time we get there.)
Check their website, does not even mention Combat Capable Canadian armed (heaven forbid!) forces.

On the 'hidden agenda' front:

a. Health Care - The Fiberals have more of a Hidden Agenda here than anybody (look at the growth of private clinics across the country the past few years) - yeah, sure, its the fault of the Conservatives who have not even been in power the past 12 years.
At least Harper is Honest enough to recognize the implications of the recent Supreme Court ruling and be willing to talk about it - the Fiberals try to hide behind the Flag and argue down anyone who even brings up the topic of Health Care reform.  'We are No 1 in spending on Health Care.'
Yup - I really want to keep throwing more and more Billions at the system - that works soo well that the UN says we are, I believe, No 34 worldwide in the Provision of Health Care.
Not to mention, can you honestly say wait times have gone down - or more realistically gone up.

b. Quebec Separatists - Which until gomery and Adscam it looked like the Bloc was on the verge of shrinking to a rump.  As that East Coast Premier noted, 'would you want to believe a Pyromaniac who, after lighting the fire (Separatism in this case - due to anger over Libs trying to Buy Their Vote) then say they are best suited to put it out - trust us.'  Suuurre, don't think so.

c. Gay Marriage - While I personally don't agree with the concept.  They, like everyone else, should have equal rights to gov't benefits and are welcome to their opinions - as long as they don't keep shoving it in my face with annual Pride parades.

All Harper has said is that he wants to put the matter to a Free Vote (unlike the Liberals who made their Cabinet vote For the proposal) in the Commons and if result is No - then matter would drop.
Irregardless, as a Vancouver Conservative candidate - who happens to be a lawyer - noted, Constitutionally you can't take away the right (of what is it some 3K couples) who have already been married.
I think it was very Austute of Harper to put this issue out their early - it is not 'Hidden' and should no longer be an issue.

As to the RED HERRING of "Regional and industrial benefits" - does nobody read the bloomin 'Transcript' - Bill Graham specifically states "Canadian Industrial and Regional Benefits equal 100% of the contract purchase.  The Industrial and Regional Benefits package has been designed by Industry Canada and agreed to by defence officials."  Its unfortunately part of the Cdn landscape and the price the gov't makes DND pay for major contracts.  As a former director of military req'ts O'Connor is well aware of this.
I don't see anyone jumping all over Graham for this.  :-X

Good ole, cross the floor and take a Cabinet post Fiberal Scott Brison (yeah Belinda got away with it too - its just UnEthical  :tsktsk: ) noted in the 22nd Nov 05 Conference that "we will be posting the performance specifications for 30 days . . . that will probably be in another ten days or so."
Well, lets see - The 24 Nov 2005 'Backgrounder' noted 'Letter of Interest and Qualification - January 2006'In just 2 days they changed their tune from '10 or so' to '38 days or so'.
Lets hope it does not slip any more to the right than that.

Now lets see, Martin and Co really care about the Forces.  They have added, or a least Promised - in 4-5 years time - to up DND's budget to above subsistence levels - still below 1992 funding levels by 2010.  Assuming with Goodales'  'Wonky Economics' [Lets phase in Program Increases over 5 years and conversely, phase in Tax Cuts over the same five years] actually make some sort of fiscal sense - yeah, that only works as long as Oil revenue keeps coming in and the economy does not slip into a recession before then.  Oh, lets not forget the NDP - in another minority they might say cut your Militaristic increases and put them towards job assistance for Autoworkers (although after Buzz they may reconsider and put it towards yet more Social Programs) if you want NDP support.

Um, who was it that cut the Forces by 25% in early 90s to 'slay the deficit', and then ran at least 5 surplusses without any real consideration of Readding most of that back in.  Wait, could it be, yup - frmr Quebec Lt and then Finance Minister Paul Martin - otherwise known as Sgt Schultz (I know nothing, see nothing, hear nothing) when Adscam was publicly made known.  ^-^

Oh yeah, don't forget FWSAR!
BUDGET 2004, then Minister Pratt noted "This includes $1.3 billion investment over several years to accelerate the acquisition of new Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Aircraft."
in what Feb/Mar 2004 noted, "Another major priority for Canada's military is the purchase of modern Fixed Wing Search and Rescue aircraft [FWSAR] to replace older Hercules aircraft and Canada's fleet of Buffalo aircraft. Under Defence's current plan, deliveries of the new aircraft will begin much later in the decade. This budget sets aside non-budgetary resources to allow the Department of National Defence to move this acquisition forward in time without displacing other planned capital investments. By doing so, the Government will accelerate the process so that deliveries of the replacement SAR planes to Canada's military can begin within 12 to 18 months. This measure will allow Defence to spend an additional $300 million on capital in 2005-06 and similar amounts in subsequent years until this procurement is completed."

Lets see, its now what - 21 months  >:( and DND and the Fiberals have yet to release a FWSAR RfP or SOR - you know, the one that keeps getting rewritten due to 'Politically Driven Interference'.  And, for a program that supposedly was not only good-to-go and going, is now stalled until after the election for who knows how long.

Don't even get me going on the lets scrap the 'Warlike' tanks and give them Politically Correct wheeled MGS.  Can't have the boys actually intimidating (or in Army Speak - Overmatch) any potential antagonist/opponent. 
Does it matter that the US is having problems getting it to work (with their focus on bunker busting - not AntiTank) - originally Cdn contract "no-later-than Dec 04" - or that Survivability is an issue, or that most of the MGS is produced in USA and not by GDLS-C - no, damm the torpedoes and full speed ahead (at least once GDLS finally get it working).  ::)
Heck, DND was unable to even talk to GDLS or US Army (using the ITARS excuse) about it until recently mid-late 2005.

To paraphase a common saying,  Promise me 'Our Priority is Defence':
Once - but not follow through - still working on it, well thats ok, we'll believe you next time.
Twice, oh wait - can't deliver yet, don't worry - we are sure you really mean it this time.
Dozens of times, well, promise us the moon because we are so desparate to believe your promises that we'll compromise out Common Sense to keep alive the hope that you will finally deliver, someday, possibly, maybe, if the planets are aligned just right ....
I hope you finally get the picture.  :brickwall:

Thats all I have to say on the topic. Whew.
I will let Def Policy, and a good drab of Common sense, and Ethics influence my Vote!  :cdn:
Do you have any idea what you're talking about when you refer to defence issues?  ::)  Thought not...

All I've heard out of O'Connor is partisan static - and absolutely nothing to give me any faith that the Conservatives actually care more than anyone else about defence - some hare-brained schemes like Goose Bay aside.  As I said earlier, I don't trust any of 'em...
As always it is a wait and see operation when dealing with military purchases. We have to hope that the next CDS has the same in your face attitude and will tell the politician and public what is needed as our current one has.
Gobsmacked said:
Jeezz, I think this thread is mis-labled.
Should read - 'Lets Bash the Conservatives formerly known as CRAP'.  :(

<much stuff snipped>

Finally, someone on this board who thinks as I do. The MGS is a piece of junk, in my estimation. If deployed in combat
situations, it will cost lives, not save them. Let me put the argument more succinctly:

Modern MBT gun range = 8 - 10km depending on ammo, fire control system, weather, gunnery skills. Armour= usually sufficient to
defeat HEAT and APFSDS ammo with penetration ratings of 650mm (or better) homogenous rolled armour.

MGS gun range = 2km (maybe) with de-powered M68 105mm ammo (de-powered to accommodate a main gun which can't
handle the regular rounds). Armour= 15 - 30mm maximum, insufficient to handle anything over .50 cal BMG AP rounds unless add-on armour is slapped on, thus interfering with the MGS' already deficient mobility.

There is no question that the Liberals are irredeemably corrupt. The Conservatives, for all their perceived faults, ought to be given a chance. The Liberals have no regard for voters, as evidenced by our rapidly collapsing military, and health care system. The truth is, without adequate defence, we run the risk of not being able to decide what kind of health care system we will have - in other words, how things are run will be dictated, not debated and decided on by the electorate. Someone once said that the best social service any government can provide is to keep citizens safe and free from attack. To do that you need combat capable forces. Period.

Responsible, accountable governments don't get into Adscam-like situations. I find it disturbing that anyone would seriously vote Liberal, just because they've bought the falsehood that the Tories have some horrible 'hidden agenda' that will just ruin life in Canada as we know it. How stupid can anyone be? Let someone rob you blind rather than face a boogeyman which doesn't exist?

As for Quebec, it's gone. The Liberal corruption has reached so far they are unlikely to get many seats in Quebec. If the BQ sweep the Quebec seats (and they will), the 'winning conditions' will be there for a successful referendum, like it or not.
Again, do you have ANY idea what you're talking about?

A quick search will illustrate that I am no defender of the MGS or of the concept which will see it fielded (particularly the farcical "system of systems" idea), but you're spouting nonsense.

First, show me the tank gun that fires 8 - 10 km direct.

Second, the Canadian MGS will be equipped with exactly the same gun as is currently on our Leopards (perhaps fitted with a muzzle brake) and will, by no coincidence, fire the same ammunition.

If you're going to engage, engage with facts, not with hyperbole.

The fact of the matter is that the MGS cannot - by any stretch of the imagination - be laid entirely at the feet of the Liberal government.  Instead, it was conceived by a group of military people within NDHQ as part of the so-called Army Transformation agenda.  It is this particular part of the transformation process that I personally cannot support, but I try to have good reasons for not doing so.

Lest you think I'm an apologist, I'm not voting Liberal.  However, I've heard nothing - zero - from the Conservatives that indicates that they deserve my vote either, particularly on defence matters.  I've hardly bought into the "hidden agenda" propaganda - the Conservatives have done a fine enough job scaring me with their bizarre pronouncements on military issues thus far.
Thank You Teddy - you summed up my feelings (both about the Liberals and the issues mentioned above quite well)

Cheers :salute:
O'Conner has even scared a large Reform-type guy like myself......he is on glue most of the time.