• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

COMBATIVE FACEBOOK POST BY MND's PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY LAURIE HAWN

pbi

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
410
I was recently sent the following e-mail text by a member of my Association branch who is an active veteran's advocate, and usually quite critical of the current Govt's policies in this area. It purports to be an e-mail from Laurie Hawn, Secretary to the MND and a former BComd at Cold Lake.

Unlike much of the sanitized teflon pablum that spouts out of ministerial offices, this e-mail comes out swinging. It makes good reading, and makes you realize that there can be two sides to any story: Here is a cut and paste (reduced to stay within the character limit):


...This post will respond to the many pieces of feedback that I received last week on the issue of veterans affairs.  First, you should know that I use Facebook and Twitter to get information out to anyone who might be interested.  Although I read all responses, I do not, as a rule, get involved in conversations, because I simply don’t have time.  People like Aaron Bedard should not draw any conclusions because I haven’t responded to any particular post, either nasty or friendly. That said I feel compelled to respond to the collection of the mostly vitriolic recent posts.  Please note that when I refer to “soldiers’, I mean soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen.


The challenge that we have is that, no matter what we say as Government, it will not be believed in the face of one dissenting view by a veteran or a soldier.  That is understandable, considering Canadians’ completely justifiable love for veterans and soldiers.  I have that same love for veterans and soldiers.  Another challenge that any government has is the reality of dealing with legitimate expectations from across the board in Canada, and trying to find a workable and sustainable balance.  The opposition (any Party, including us in that situation) and the media can say whatever they want; they don’t have the responsibility for delivering anything. I don’t say that pejoratively, that is just the way it works. I will, however, question the motivations of PSAC. I have no doubt that the individual members of PSAC care as much as any other Canadian about our veterans and soldiers. This is only the early stages of a much bigger battle that we will have with PSAC, as we make necessary cuts to the public service (most by attrition) to make it more efficient and cost effective.  Paul Martin made much deeper cuts in 1995.  I have no quarrel whatsoever with veterans standing up for their cause; just don’t kid me about whom and what is also pulling some strings. PSAC deliberately misled veterans when they said that the manning of Service Canada offices by qualified VAC case managers in locations where VAC offices were closing was for three months only.  They attributed those statements to Charlotte Bastien of VAC, and she said no such thing, because it is not true and those case managers are there indefinitely.  PSAC did not tell the truth. Regrettably, media like The Charlottetown Guardian are perpetuating that lie with articles like the one on January 30, quoting a misinformed case worker.  Last week’s trip to Ottawa by a group of veterans was paid for by PSAC, as is their right.  I was at the initial meeting, along with MPs Erin O’Toole and Parm Gill, and we made it clear that the Minister was in a Cabinet meeting advocating for veterans benefits (successfully), and that he might not be able to make it before we all had to go back to the House for votes.  We tried to discuss the issue of closures with them, but they were just mad and didn’t really want to talk to us.  I understand that. The offer was made of a dinner meeting with the Minister. The later incident with the Minister was very regrettable and he has apologized in public a number of times.  In the end, the vets chose to dine with PSAC.  I have no problem with that; just don’t BS me about what is going on.  I will repeat for those who want to cherry-pick my comments, that is NOT a comment against the vets.



I was part of the Treasury Board Cabinet Committee tasked with developing the Deficit Reduction  Action Plan. That took place over several months of late night sittings. We were looking for 10% from all departments and, in the end, Veterans Affairs took the lowest cuts of any department at 1.9%. Those cuts were targeted at inefficiencies and not at services and benefits.  The closure of the nine offices was the recommendation of the department and the then-Min VAC, based on the lower level of activity at those offices.  For Sydney, that was about five walk-ins a day, perhaps suggesting that most folks were already actually using other methods of communication.  As I’ve said, there will be a permanently posted case manager in each affected location, often in the same building. In addition to the remaining 51 VAC offices, there will be qualified people in the 600 Service Canada Offices across the country and they are being trained as we speak.  That training and their effectiveness will have to be closely monitored, for sure, and I will do my best to see that happen.  There are also 17 Operational Stress Injury Clinics, 24 Integrated Personnel Support Centres and a Joint Personnel Support Unit , all dedicated to the veteran or the serving soldier and their families.  Like everything else, there can be challenges to making them most effective and that will be a case of continuous review, evaluation and change, as required.  There are also Military Family Resource Centres across the country, which are there to serve as the name suggests. People may not realize that there are also 1461 Legions across Canada, all of which have Service Officers (vets serving vets) who assist veterans in filling out forms or other things to make the vet’s life easier.  They are not under VAC and Government can take no credit for the work the Legions do; but they are part of the continuum of service available, and these things are taken into account when services are required to evolve.  Lastly, we have family.  This is NOT a suggestion that Government can shirk its responsibilities, but I work with families of veterans regularly on their issues.  Family participation is part of being Canadian.



A couple of tidbits.  The MP for Cariboo-Prince George has received zero complaints from veterans about the office closure there almost a year ago.  The Durham region has over 400,000 people and a lot of vets and has never had a VAC office, yet services continue to be delivered effectively.


There are 685,000 veterans in Canada, of which I am one.  There are about 209,000 clients of VAC, of which I am not one – yet.  90% of VAC clients are there for hearing loss.  There are about 7,500 case-managed clients; i.e. those who need more help.  There are a relatively small number of folks who are having more difficulty with the system than they should.  Naturally, those are the cases that we hear about and we need to do everything possible to resolve any issues.  Although any will always be too many, that doesn’t mean that the whole system is broken.  The overall aim of Veterans Affairs Canada is not to promote a life-long financial dependence, except where there is no option.  The aim is rehabilitation and retraining, so that the veteran can get on with a new life and career on his or her own terms.  I recommend that people read Stephen Fletcher’s story, What do you do if you don’t die?  Stephen has been an inspiration to a great many very seriously injured people.



There are legitimate issues to be sure, and I and others are constantly trying to find ways to address them.  These issues have existed long before the New Veterans Charter was implemented.  One example is the situation that is not the fault of either DND or VAC; and that is that, under the Privacy Act, DND is not allowed to routinely share personal information with VAC, when a serving soldier becomes a client of VAC.  That rightly seems kind of dumb to most folks, and I intend to draft a Private Members Bill to address that issue. There are issues with burden of proof and ease of access to the wide range of benefits and services available, and I and others are beating those drums constantly. Nothing happens fast enough for anyone and large bureaucracies have a lot of inertia. I got into public life because of those types of challenges.  I won’t go into detail here, because the information is readily available, and I will be posting some info on Facebook soon.  There is a lot more available under the NVC than people are being led to believe; it is not just a lump sum.  The NVC was the result of a decade of consultation with all veterans organizations.  It was passed by 100% of all members of all parties under the Liberals in 2005 and implemented by our government in 2006.  It was endorsed by all veterans organizations.  It has been amended to make it better (arguably too slowly); and even Peter Stoffer is on record as saying that it is an improvement over the old system.  To be sure, we need to keep it a “living document” and push for necessary changes, to the extent possible.  The Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, of which I am a member, is currently doing a comprehensive review of the NVC to make recommendations for improvement.  Let me address some of the comments from folks on Facebook and Twitter, in no particular order.  Some of the tweets were simply too nasty to even merit a response.



For Andrea Stewart – I don’t see how pointing out professional advice from the Canadian Mental Health Association could be considered a “flip response” to the issue of suicides. Causes of suicides in the military are similar, in most cases, to the causes in the rest of society.


For Aaron Bedard - Obviously zero is the target, but we do have to deal with reality, just like in the rest of society.  DND will soon reach its goal of 450 mental healthcare professionals, which will give DND and VAC the highest ratio among any of our allies. It’s never enough, but those trained people are not out there in unlimited numbers and we are competing with the rest of the healthcare system.  Absolutely no one takes this issue lightly.  I have never taken the issue of suicides lightly, but there are realities that we have to face, even as we work toward the ultimate (but regrettably probably not achievable) goal of zero.  I did not and would not laugh about it and walk away.  Thank you for the more recent long and useful piece on Legion involvement.  One of my self-assigned tasks this week is to learn more about the VAC – Legion interface and how we can strengthen that for better service delivery to vets.


For Tracy Kerr – You serve every bit as much as your husband did and everyone in the system should be trying to make your and his life easier.  There is a lot of help available and, if you’re not getting it, I would urge you to contact your MP with details.  I have successfully taken up the cause on several occasions and VAC and the Minister do want to help.  Just before Christmas, I saw Min VAC fix three cases where something had fallen through the cracks on the same day.


For Raymond Pete Moskowec – The unions, opposition and media are doing what they have always, as is their right.  Just don’t BS me about it.  I am part of our government team that is trying very hard to deal with the reality of issues and what is the art of the possible.  I don’t necessarily agree with everything we do; but I’ll fight those battles on the inside, away from the eyes of the media.  My conscience is perfectly clear, thank you.


For Doug Roberts – Nice vitriolic rant. The man’s name is Stogran, not Strogan, and I have great respect for his service, although we disagree on some issues. His term of office was simply over.  Ombudsmen play a very important role, which doesn’t automatically put them at odds with the department.  In fact, we have agreed with and are implementing many of Mr. Parent’s recommendations.  Some of the ones we are not acting on, yet, may simply not be doable.  Min VAC did not “bushwhack” our veterans last week, he was actually fighting for them in Cabinet.  Why would anyone set up a meeting like that and then intentionally not show up? Give your head a shake.  I shave in the mirror quite comfortably and, at 66 and counting, there are no motives to “further Mr. Hawn’s political future.”  What I have chosen to do is to try to make an actual difference for veterans, instead of simply venting on Facebook.


For Danny Fanjoy – Thanks for the support.  I do think that most folks that I worked with during my military career and afterwards would say much the same thing.  I haven’t changed; I’m just in a much tougher world.


For Dwight Estey – No one said that veterans can’t think for themselves and I fully support their right to speak out.  What I did say, and it is true, is that PSAC is using the veterans issues as part of a larger battle that they are having with our government.  It is also true that the opposition and media are doing what they always do, and I also supported their right to do that.  Just don’t BS me about it.  I will get more information on what Australia is doing for veterans. The conditions that you list “under your Government’s watch” have been around for decades.  All need to be and are being addressed, but as I’m sure you realize, there is an element of general societal conditions, such as the rate of mental illness in all Canadians – one-in-five.  I have certainly not turned my back on my brethren.


For Russell Roberts – Our military members are some of the most highly paid in the world.  There are unusual circumstances, such as at Cold Lake, where the cost of housing is artificially high due to the prevalence of the oil patch.  Yes, MP pensions are still generous, even though they have been significantly downgraded over the past several years.  I’m not going to apologize for that and the only things that I have voted for has been the downgrading.


For Mark A Thomson – If you don’t like what is happening, get involved.  Join a party; volunteer; join the board of your local riding.  It is the right thing to do and it will open your eyes to some of the realities that Canada faces.  We need respectful dissent in Canada, between parties and within parties, and, for sure, between ordinary Canadians.


For Wanda Matheson – Good call.


For John Campbell – Fine, I think you’re wrong but, just as with Mark Thomson, please get involved and learn ALL the facts.  Minister Fantino did not perform well in the openly hostile scenario on Monday and he has apologized for that.  You won’t believe me, but he has the best interests of veterans at heart and I see that every day.  If I calculated my hourly rate of pay, it would not seem quite so “high paying”, but I have no complaint; I do this because I want to make a difference. And, no I am not a traitor, even though it may make you feel good to say that.


For Kenneth Eastman – You really need to pay more attention to what is actually happening.  And, yes, I turn the fan on just like I hope you do.


For Jim Newton and Jim Griffin – We are doing our best to stand up for veterans.  Sometimes it takes longer than it should for any one individual and we are constantly trying to speed up the process.


For Dennis Manuge – I have already responded and you know better than that.


For Sandy Brace – I never said that veterans couldn’t think for themselves.  That doesn’t mean that others are not using them for other agendas, see remarks elsewhere.  I also said that I support the unions, media and opposition to pursue other agendas; just don’t BS me about it.  On the other issue, Neil Young is entitled to his opinions, as grossly and wilfully misinformed as they are. 


For Kari Leigh – I am getting updated information on suicide rates and no one has said that, regardless of numbers, suicide is not a problem in the CAF, just as it is in society, in general.  There is a lot of help available; the challenge is getting folks into the system.  If someone is reluctant to seek help from the military system because of fears of stigma, the civilian help-lines are also available.  Please see remarks elsewhere on NVC.  Like everything, there is room for improvement, but it has been step forward.


I wouldn’t normally do this, but with all the ad hominem attacks I’ve received, I think some of you may be interested in what I have actually done in support of veterans and soldiers.  First of all, I have been where you’ve been, all jokes about fighter pilots aside.  I and my comrades in supersonic cockpits were (and are) prepared to make the same sacrifice as anyone else in uniform; and many have done just that.  In my 30+ year Air Force career, I lost well over 30 friends to sudden and violent death; so please don’t tell me that I don’t understand personal and family loss.  I have picked up body parts of close friends at crash sites, although when you hit the ground at over 500 knots, the pieces are pretty small – a hand, the back of a head, a knee-bone, mostly just unrecognizable tiny bits.....


....Just as my military career was the best job I will ever have, I think that the highlight of my time in Parliament will be waking up on Christmas mornings at a Forward Operating Base somewhere in the Panjwaii with some of the finest citizens that Canada has.  Although most of our trips were by helicopter, I have also travelled the roads of Kandahar on several occasions.  I bade farewell or welcomed back troops to and from Afghanistan at any time of the day or night on countless occasions since January 2006.  My first was the severely-wounded MCpl Paul Franklin.  I have done ramp ceremonies in Kandahar, Camp Mirage and Trenton, representing MND.  I have put my arm around the shoulders of a Governor General who was overcome by emotion, and cried with families at ramp ceremonies, memorial services and funerals.  I am an active member of Edmonton Salutes, a model organization that shows how Canadian cities should honour our soldiers.  Although most of my time has been with the Army, as an MP I have also sailed with the Navy and flown with the Air Force.  I have attended equally countless events at the Edmonton Garrison and other military installations across the country.  I have marched with members of the CAF for three four-day Marches at Nijmegen.  I was on the front lines of the fight to preserve the reputation of Canadian soldiers when a great many in the media and opposition were questioning their conduct in Afghanistan.  I spent months in a room reading over 20,000 pages of Taliban prisoner documents, and I can’t tell you what a treat that was. I was influential in the government NOT appealing the Manuge case, even though the government position was technically and legally correct.  It is costing the taxpayers over $1 billion, but it was the right thing to do. ...


...I don’t profess to know everything or that our government does everything right.  But don’t ever accuse me of not caring or doing nothing.  I will always do everything within my power and the limits of reality to make life better for soldiers and veterans and their families.  I’m not saying what I just said above to sound my own praises but to try to show that, contrary to a lot of the cheap rhetoric that people love to throw around, I care; and so do all my colleagues on all sides of the House.  So does the Minister and so does the Prime Minister....



Cheers,





Laurie Hawn, PC, CD, MP

- mod edit of title to clarify -
 

Journeyman

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,607
Points
940
We were looking for 10% [budget reduction] from all departments and, in the end, Veterans Affairs took the lowest cuts of any department at 1.9%. Those cuts were targeted at inefficiencies and not at services and benefits.

But...but....I can't believe the media missed that!  I feel kind of silly standing in front of the castle with this flaming torch now. 
 

pbi

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
410
Just wait. I guarantee you'll find something to fling it at. This is the Federal Govt we're talking about here. A "target rich environment".
 

medicineman

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
1,006
Points
1,010
So JM, when are you planning on running for Kingston and the Islands?

MM
 

Journeyman

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,607
Points
940
I'll see how the write-in ballots for the Toronto Mayoral campaign go, before I commit.  :cheers:
 

medicineman

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
1,006
Points
1,010
My brother is supposed to be running someone's campaign there...look him up when it's over.
 

Canadian.Trucker

Sr. Member
Mentor
Reaction score
0
Points
210
A good read to be sure.

The topic of veterans and what has been in the media recently came up today around the conference table with some of my NCOs.  And while we all agreed the Government of Canada could improve in many areas, we were all also of the opinion that the topic of veteran issues could be (and is) used by the opposition for the upcoming election to assist in the change of what party is in power.  This concerned us all as I'm sure like most on this forum we look back into the not too distant past and remember what the Liberals did when they were at the helm.  Just some food for thought as we discuss all of these issues.
 

The Bread Guy

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,631
Points
1,260
An interesting read, for sure, but this line ....
The challenge that we have is that, no matter what we say as Government, it will not be believed in the face of one dissenting view by a veteran or a soldier.
.... doesn't feel like something from Hawn or anybody in government.  I doubt a Parliamentary Secretary in such a high-profile portfolio would send out something this long on such a delicate topic. 

A bit more available here, attributed by a columnist to someone else who sent him an e-mail:
http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/Blog-Article/b/25653/A-letter-from-an-MP

Canadian.Trucker said:
.... we all agreed the Government of Canada could improve in many areas, we were all also of the opinion that the topic of veteran issues could be (and is) used by the opposition for the upcoming election to assist in the change of what party is in power.  This concerned us all as I'm sure like most on this forum we look back into the not too distant past and remember what the Liberals did when they were at the helm.  Just some food for thought as we discuss all of these issues.
But the current government, who says it's all for the troops and vets, has had a majority for a while, and has chosen to continue a broken system when it could have changed things if it was a priority.  It wasn't a priority, so it didn't change the system.
 

Sailorwest

Member
Reaction score
0
Points
210
Saw this earlier from a different source. No doubt there is a lot of political play going on. That being said, there does seem to be a lot of smoke out there from this department. Maybe it is all being created by PSAC or those who are not currently forming government but my sense is that where there is smoke, there is likely a fire as well. Given that I'm not a current customer of VAC, I can't say for sure how good or bad their service is to Vets but it certainly seems like there are real issues that may be compounded by some of the cuts.
 

Rifleman62

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
112
Points
680
pbi
I was recently sent the following e-mail text by a member of my Association branch who is an active veteran's advocate, and usually quite critical of the current Govt's policies in this area. It purports to be an e-mail from Laurie Hawn, Secretary to the MND and a former BComd at Cold Lake.

I received the same several days ago from the BCD's Assn. No letterhead, no means of identification and that authenticates nothing.
This is going around the internet; caution.
 

The Bread Guy

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,631
Points
1,260
Rifleman62 said:
pbi
I received the same several days ago from the BCD's Assn. No letterhead, no means of identification and that authenticates nothing.
This is going around the internet; caution.
If it's not from him, I'm guessing we'll see a denial pretty quickly - said MP is quick on the Twitter responses as required.

Wait and see ....
 

Journeyman

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,607
Points
940
Rifleman62 said:
pbi
I received the same several days ago from the BCD's Assn. No letterhead, no means of identification and that authenticates nothing.
This is going around the internet; caution.

:panic:    [Couldn't find a conspiratorial icon]

Sorry, I meant to say
...or you could check his Facebook page to verify it.

 

Danjanou

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
0
Points
410
You know for someone who denies using it you seem to be pretty knowledgeable re FB  8)

So who wants to go post this on the Canadian Veterans Advocacy Site and/or FB page http://canadianveteransadvocacy.com/ ?

I'm sure the result there would result in gainful employment for JMs torch  >:D
 

The Bread Guy

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,631
Points
1,260
Journeyman said:
:panic:    [Couldn't find a conspiratorial icon]

Sorry, I meant to say
...or you could check his Facebook page to verify it.
Good idea.

Nothing on the PM's current page, but checking the Google cached timeline, we catch a snippet yesterday ....
Thanks for all the responses (50/50 favourable and not) to my long post.  I am not encouraging, nor can I engage in, ongoing conversations, due to lack of time.  That said, I feel compelled to respond (briefly, I promise) to some of the sta...
.... that doesn't appear to be in today's Facebook versionMaybe those with more knowledge of the interwebs can pry out the bit that doesn't come up after that quote, but I can't.

Here it is - I stand corrected.
 

Rifleman62

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
112
Points
680
Well Journeyman, I sit corrected.

I don't Facebook unless I have too, or Twitter, but I can speak on the phone and quietly chew gum concurrently.
 

pbi

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
410
I agree that the authorship may be difficult to prove: that's why I said "purports to be..." I also find it a bit odd that Harper (or one of his ministers) would allow a post like this, which appears to be so far outside their usual routine of carefully scripted and coordinated lines.

One thing that seems to emerge from some of the posts above: we want to be very careful that we  don't dismiss valid veterans' complaints as being the Satanic work of the LPC, PSAC, or other anti-Tory groups. That might be a tragic mistake. I have no doubt that there are some people out there with bad information or bad motives, but we should stay focused on hte idea that those who have served and sacrificed deserve the fulfillment of the Government's half of the social contract a soldier makes with his country.
 

NavyShooter

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,762
Points
1,090
Whomever wrote it, it currently resides, in its entirety, on Mr. Hawn's Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/laurie-hawn/response-to-a-challenging-week/796994416981482

The byline (and last two paragraphs):

I don’t profess to know everything or that our government does everything right.  But don’t ever accuse me of not caring or doing nothing.  I will always do everything within my power and the limits of reality to make life better for soldiers and veterans and their families.  I’m not saying what I just said above to sound my own praises but to try to show that, contrary to a lot of the cheap rhetoric that people love to throw around, I care; and so do all my colleagues on all sides of the House.  So does the Minister and so does the Prime Minister.

This was long and I apologize for taking so much of your time, but I care very deeply about the issues. Thank you for hanging in to the end.  If you didn’t and simply wanted to go off on a tangent about some cherry-picked comment, that is your right, but I would suggest that the more respectful dialogue that we can have on such important issues, the better.  I wish it were easier in Parliament.  If you did wander off, however, I guess you wouldn’t even be reading this part anyway ..... oh well.  Please know that I will continue to work hard for veterans and soldiers, knowing that whatever I or our government does can never be enough; that we will always try to find ways to do more; and that there will always be those who will disagree, no matter what we do.  That’s life in politics and I am proud and happy to serve.  As I write this, it is now 1300 MST on Sunday and I have been at my computer since 0600 MST.  It is time to throw some stuff in a bag and catch my regular flight back to Ottawa, to get to bed about 0100 EST. Not complainin’, just sayin’.  Hopefully, next week and those that follow will be less emotional and more productive.

Cheers,

Laurie Hawn, PC, CD, MP

It seems clear to me that he is taking ownership of these statements....either that or someone has quite resoundingly hacked his f-book page.

NS
 

DAA

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
410
NavyShooter said:
It seems clear to me that he is taking ownership of these statements....either that or someone has quite resoundingly hacked his f-book page.
NS

He's an elected officlal, so I highly doubt that he took the time or had the time to write that himself, that's what "staffers" are for.  To maintain webpages/site and twitter accounts.  It's too bad that when these types of statements are made that they don't come with the lead in of "John Smith sent onbehalf of ......"

If it doesn't have the caveate of "Official" somewhere in the "lead in", then it's anyone's guess where it came from.
 

Canadian.Trucker

Sr. Member
Mentor
Reaction score
0
Points
210
milnews.ca said:
But the current government, who says it's all for the troops and vets, has had a majority for a while, and has chosen to continue a broken system when it could have changed things if it was a priority.  It wasn't a priority, so it didn't change the system.
You are correct and I believe that change needs to come WRT the governments treatment and support of veterans.  For myself I would still rather have a Conservative Government that on the whole treats the military better than any of the other parties would.
 

Edward Campbell

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Mentor
Reaction score
2,218
Points
1,160
Just a point because no nit should go unpicked: Laurie Hawn is not the Parliamentary Secretary to the MND. He was until the September 2013 cabinet shuffle when he was replaced by James Bezan. Mr Hawn is one of those rare people who are members of the Queen's Privy Council (entitled to style themselves as "Honourable" and use the post nominal PC) without being a cabinet minister. (Note that, by custom, the leader of the opposition and former GGs, are also, Privy Councillors.)
 
Top