Better system instead of Cl A pay sheets

[Milkeyway]

This is definitely a low priority topic but none the less I am curious if anyone has given any thought to implementing a better system to Cl A pay than signing sheets. I ask as the Adjt of my unit and having to sign all those pay sheets constantly, tracking down fin codes and in some instances also ensuring that pers do not exceed their 16 days per month.

As I understand, pay sheets get archived for quite some time - 7 years I've been told. That makes A LOT of archiving I think - but necessary I would think in order to go back for pay discrepancies/questions/etc.

So does any one have any ideas what could replace a pay sheet? Obiously it would need to meet all the requirements of a pay sheet i.e. date worked, half or full day, timings, activity, fin code assignment and pers that worked that day.

What I kinda envisioned was having sort of a kiosk where the member can login by whatever method and be provided a few options that would create, at the end, an electronic pay sheet that can be then submitted to the pay office and archived electronically. Now, since people line up any way to sign one pay sheet, lining up for the kisok would not be any different except it would be faster for the member, more accurate and simpler to file.

So, am I nuts or other Adjt/pay offices think it would be a good idea to revamp the current Cl A pay sheet tree-killing system?

 

[Meridian]

This is the sort of tool I develop at work with a programmer... We've been replacing a lot of paper forms with electronic "Web" interfaces that write to a DB (usually SQL Server).

This can be easily done if the original requirements are kept modest. Indeed, for about 10-15k,  you could have a nice app that spits out an approved form via paper, if someone wanted it that way.   

Where these types of IT Projects get way out of hand is when people want to integrate it all with systems like Peoplesoft, SAP, etc.    Standalone, it would be low-maintenance, and fairly easy to put in place.

 

[kratz]

From 2001 through part of 2004 all 24 Naval Reserve Divisions experemented with a biometric sign in/out system for their class A pers. The final result was to scrap the project as it did not reduce the amount of paperwork  and effort required to support the new system. So units and commands are serious about looking into these computerized pay methods.

 

[Staff Weenie]

Years ago we had the old plastic Service Number Cards given to us with a magnetic strip on them. As the acting Fin O, I was told that there was a plan to use them as 'swipe cards' to get rid of the pay sheets. So, as you walk in to your unit, you swipe the card through, and swipe out at the end of the day.

Sounded like a great idea, but I gather there were technical difficulties that weren't easily solved, and there was thought to be too much potential for fraud....getting your friend to swipe the card for you.

 

[dapaterson]

Any new system has to keep a number of imperatives together:

1.  Positive identification otf the individuals to be paid

2.  Confirmation IAW the FAA that funds are available

3.  Confirmation IAW the FAA that the personnel were present


Or do we need to start from the ground up with a new concept of pay for part-time reservists?  "You will parade 4 evenings per month and one weekend per month.  As a private, you will be paid $540 per month for this."  If we pay everyone a baseline amount for their attendance, and only need to publish modifcations to the baseline (Pte Bloggins is on course and paraded an additional two weekends that must be paid , and Pte Jones missed the weekend so that has to be removed from his pay) we'd simplify the process somewhat... and as an added bonus, add some predictability to pay for part-timers.  Mind you, we'd still have to track attendance to ensure people were not overpaid, but part of the pay process would be simplified.

 

[navymich]

From 2001 through part of 2004 all 24 Naval Reserve Divisions experemented with a biometric sign in/out system for their class A pers. The final result was to scrap the project as it did not reduce the amount of paperwork  and effort required to support the new system. So units and commands are serious about looking into these computerized pay methods.

I remember that.  You had to key in your SN, and then there was a spot for your handprint scan.  But we still had to sign the paysheets as the system was so unreliable.  What a big deal they made about getting those all mounted and activated in the units.  :

 

[Northern Ranger]

One simple sign in sheet should do.  Then the pay clerks put that into the RPSR system and you treat that system as the pay record, just like the CCPS(reg force pay).

How do you control it? Simple, role calls then someone signs saying all pers attended. Then that sheet goes to the Pay clerk and beside every name they put done the confirmation number from the RPSR and Pass it to the pers auth the Pay.  Pers auth the pay checks names and fin codes and dates inputted and certifies it in RPSR, not rocket science but some.  On an audit we where asked where our pay records where, we as for what UIC and printed off the data and pulled the Parade sheet.  Worked for Ottawa.

For those that like to pull fly Chit out of pepper, don't worry all parading was auth on Exercise Instruction.  All pers involved have proper delegation from Commanding Officer.

 

[Steel Badger]

Sorry for the thread hijack but as it seems we have several knowledgeable folks from the adm world here I thought I would ask as question regarding the old pink pay sheets.

I spent a great deal of reserve time from 1985-87 on pink sheets. What might my course of action be if I was seeking to recover some of that pay I never recieved. I am aware that this is probably a lost cause at this point.

Cheers


SB

 

[Northern Ranger]

I'm sorry I'm not familure with the sheets you talk about.  But as a Groupheadquarters we have all of our attendance sheets from when the unit stood up in 99. I would suggest talking to your unit and getting them to check the archives, I know for reg force pay records they have to hold on to them for 99years or something silly like that, I also know that those pay records are somewhere in Ottawa, not sure where yours might have been sent.  Looking for pay that you should have gotten 20yrs ago, just very well might be a lost cause.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

A simple method for pay sheets, as reserve attendance is really a coin toss at best from a week to week basis, not counting you're NES types if to have aech sub-unit submit thier own paysheets to the regimental hq (ie A Bty submits thier paysheet, b Bty has thier own, HQ And Sigs Bty has thier own and support bty has one) then the regt pay office has only to input into RPSR assuming, or trusting rather that the Bty/Coy commanders are not fraudulent in signing thier returns (which all are) It creates 3 or 4 paysheets for a parade week but makes life simpler and reduces the line up at the pay office.

 

[Rheostatic]

ensuring that pers do not exceed their 16 days per month.

What's this about?

 

[Rheostatic]

Or do we need to start from the ground up with a new concept of pay for part-time reservists?  "You will parade 4 evenings per month and one weekend per month.  As a private, you will be paid $540 per month for this."  If we pay everyone a baseline amount for their attendance, and only need to publish modifcations to the baseline (Pte Bloggins is on course and paraded an additional two weekends that must be paid , and Pte Jones missed the weekend so that has to be removed from his pay) we'd simplify the process somewhat... and as an added bonus, add some predictability to pay for part-timers.  Mind you, we'd still have to track attendance to ensure people were not overpaid, but part of the pay process would be simplified.

Many people on class A don't work on such a regular schedule. Under the current system, I sign in, I get paid. Under the system you're suggesting, we would have to generate so many "modifications to baseline" that our clerks would be swamped with paperwork. For predictability, an old-fashioned calendar works just fine.

 

[George Wallace]

......... and in some instances also ensuring that pers do not exceed their 16 days per month.

Are you sure on that figure?  I have been exposed to another number........37 Cl A days Total for annual Unit Trg.  Now that does not include any Crses, Deployments, LFCA Exercises, etc. which all fall under different Fin Codes.

 

[dapaterson]

The current funding model is based on 37.5 days per soldier, from Sept to May.  There was previously direction issued limiting the total number of class A days a member was permitted to parade in a fiscal year; not sure where that direction has gone (eg when / if it was rescinded).

Rheostatic:  My proposal for a "salaried" reservist includes the implication that the service should be more obligatory and less optional.  Does a soldier parading one night a month really add much to the Army as a whole?  Or should we have a (perhaps smaller) more dedicated force that trains regularly?  Such a system might also oblige units to plan better... an added bonus.

 

[Rheostatic]

Rheostatic:  My proposal for a "salaried" reservist includes the implication that the service should be more obligatory and less optional.  Does a soldier parading one night a month really add much to the Army as a whole?  Or should we have a (perhaps smaller) more dedicated force that trains regularly?  Such a system might also oblige units to plan better... an added bonus.

Actually, I meant the opposite; in addition to the minimum one evening per week and one weekend per month, I and many people I work with would have to modify your baseline by adding days and sessions, often at the last minute. There would be so many modifications that the "baseline" wouldn't be all that useful.  Maybe for your Pte Bloggins, but not all reservists work in the same environment or under the same conditions.

 

[Evocatus]

At the risk of drawing fire for resurrecting this 200+ day ole post....

CAVET: not nec the 100% solution, but with minimal tweaking, it could be...

For Units using MonitorMASS; one possible solution - You drop the "BAR" sign in sheets and simply create a nominal roll of pers parading, in MonitorMASS 'Activity Management' and give that to your OR to process [as long as the CO has "signed off" on the methology for pay. Monitor-MASS becomes your record of attendance, it's backed up on the network, you can subsequently query & track attendance (read - NES). Monitor already 'pulls' from PS to show Cl a days [full and .5]. Monitor is fully implemented (CLS dir) in the Army, however, any others may implement as desired.

 

[George Wallace]

Interesting.  Have you passed that up through your Org? 

 

[Milkeyway]

WOW, I thought this post was dead for sure but glad to see there is still some interest. After reading the whole thread to refresh my mind I guess I need to clarify the question posted ref 16 days per month.
I concur with the PRes model of 37 days per trg cal. As well, a PRes member is auth to parade up to 16 days per month in blocks of no more than 4 consecutive days. i.e. Mon-Thur or whatever combination. Parading more than 16 days per month or 5 or possibly all 16 days consecutively would mean Cl B. This is done to protect the member and his/her entitlements. Regadless of the 37 day model, a Cl A soldier can parade up to 80 days in a FY with unit auth. CO can auth up to 100 days, Bde can auth up to 120 days and Area any days past 120 per FY.

Now into MonitorMASS. I know and stand behind MonitorMASS 100%. My unit has embraced it and trained almost all Snr NCO & Offrs on the system which has made for so much better unit administration. In terms of tracking parade attendance, I can see it working but it still would require that amount setup and updates on every trg event. Probably as much time as signing the pay sheets any way. Also, it would not work for the odd day Cl A soldieres that show up for GD's and pers on other tasks that require different fin codes unless you now create a different Activity for each of them. Again, we know MonitorMASS is extremely effective but I can not see it being used as a pay sheet replacement.

Since my initial post I have been working (on and off) on a stand-alone system that works on biometrics for identification. The programming is web-based (.Net) on an SQL database. It is extremely simple and the intent is to have all pers fingerprint into the system which would then take them into a screen very similar to what a paysheet looks like. Pers select the day, activity, start and end time and click OK. At the end of the day I get a print out sorted by FIN CODE and I sign the last sheet certifying the attendance for the pay office. So we still have paper but now I don't have to worry about who showed up, under what activity, when and why, having in average about 50 pay sheets every couple weeks and sorting through all of the paperwork.

Any ideas if this would work out or does any one see any forecoming issues?

 

[George Wallace]

A couple of questions.

1st.  Everyone would require a Logon ?  And if so, how would you handle their pay/documentation for the time they parade prior to being granted a Logon?

2nd.  How would you control/enforce the pers making the correct choice of employment/Fin Code?

 

[dapaterson]

1.  Biometrics are crap, and work poorly.  I sem to recall mythbusters making fake fingerprints with off the shelf items that defeated off-the-shelf fingerprint readers.

2.  Soldiers do not control the dates & times they sign in.  Those are set by their supervisors.

3.  Hardware breaks.  Particularly things like readers, with many grubby fingers stuck on them.  Once the reader is down, you're back to manual systems.


Many units need to assert better positive controls over pay sheets, it's true.  But building Yet Another IT system is not the solution (IMHO).  First step should be better definition of processes - from soldier arriving to payment being issued - to look for obvious economies to be made, or simplifications possible.  But there's much more to the pay system than just the paper and input at the unit level.  The need to retain records, and requirements of various acts and regulations must be respected as well.

Besides, the work is already underway to define the next CF pay system, that will do both part and full time service.  Any process improvements should be fed into that work to ensure they are captured.