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Alternate for the CIC

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xFusilier:

I come from a bit of a different background then a lot of people who have posted one this subject, I am a 6A Res Infantry MCpl who works with a Cadet Corps (due to the fact that the nearest Res Unit is 1400 km away), for those of you who think that those who  decide to lead in the cadet movement as nothing more than glorified boy scout leaders I have one thing to say...give me trained soldiers to lead any day of the week.  *Anecedotal experience alert* there is as much of a challenge leading cadets as there is soldiers, the challenge simply comes in different forms.  As for the question "How do CIC officers contribute to the defence of Canada", well I hypothesize that more and more so the average Canadian's contact with the military is minimal, combine this with the fact that Cadets is the single largest youth leadership training program in Canada: Cadets is the single largest opportunity that the CF had to but it's best foot forward in a large number of communities in Canada.  Furthermore it is an oppourtunity for the CF to show the leaders of tommorow that the CF does make a difference.  We live in a democratic society and it is the opinion of these future leaders in terms of the political opinions that they aid in forming that will make or break the CF, far better that WE form the opinions of the leaders of tommorow, than the Young Dope-Smoking Hippie Pinko-League.

That being said, yes there are poor officers in the CIC, I have worked with a number of them, but to say that I worked in the BOR or the MIR of a cadet camp and blah, blah, blah, is basing an opinion on having sat back in the rear and not seen where the rubber meets the road i.e. the training that goes on at a Cadet Summer Training Centre.  The CF has to a large extent done the CIC a great diservice by failing to equip them with the tools they need to do their job (honestly if you are not a leader, a ten day commisioning course isn't going to teach you how to lead).

As for those who say that the CIC could be replaced by an NCO cadre, the reason that those NCO's (not NCM's) that work with Cadet Corps are as effective as they as is on the basis of the training that they have recieved as a young soldier.  The reason I can effectively lead in a cadet environment is based on my experiences in leading soldiers, thus leaving the question how are we to train NCM's to be effective leaders without the experience of leading soldiers.  To sit there and say that we already do that wiith the CiC is a dodge for those that don't like having to salute Cadet Cadre officers.  The fact of the matter is that members of the CF who choose (and I say choose, because I know a number of members of the CIC who are good officers period, they would be as sucessful in any other classification as the CIC...but choose or are forced to work as Cadet Instructors) assume a level of responsibility that does not exist when working with soldiers.  Every soldier assumes a certain amount of risk when he or she signs of the dotted line, the Cadet movement cannot take such risks with other people's kids.

I'm not trying to develop a screed here, but I've learned in the three years I've worked within the Cadet Movement that the age old adage of "walk a mile in my shoes" applies a hell of a lot in this case.

N. McKay:


--- Quote from: MCG on April 03, 2005, 04:48:51 ---It was previously argued that the CIC should be required to take the same training as â Å“every other officer.â ?   This vague demand was made by individuals that I suspect of being ignorant as to what is involved in officer training and the differences that exist depending on ones environment and component.   However, in order to establish this â Å“military mindsetâ ? I would suspect that the PRes BMQ could provide a minimum starting point.   â Å“But why not the PRes officer trgâ ? you ask?   Because, we do not need to train CIC to lead Pl & Coy into battle.   We only need to get that â Å“military mindsetâ ? into them.   So, we can use the same course the CF uses to get the â Å“military mindsetâ ? into every new reserve Pte (regardless of environment)
--- End quote ---

I agree with the thrust of that argument -- a good "basic" course is necessary.  The current CIC Basic Officer Qualification unfortunately tries to do a little bit too much in the time it has, mixing the indoctrination-type topics with some of the trade skills, if you like.  I'd rather see those kept in two separte courses.


--- Quote ---While OPME training may not be required for the CIC's "Primary Duties and Responsibilities" it should be seen as essential for the duty of representing the CF to Canadians & cadets (and without this roll, the CIC may as well be civilian).   Canadian Military History, Leadership & Ethics, and Introduction to Defence Mgmt are the ones I see as being relevant to the CIC's roll.
--- End quote ---

Very much so.

MCG:


--- Quote from: Neill McKay on April 03, 2005, 09:37:17 ---I agree with the thrust of that argument -- a good "basic" course is necessary.   The current CIC Basic Officer Qualification unfortunately tries to do a little bit too much in the time it has, mixing the indoctrination-type topics with some of the trade skills, if you like.   I'd rather see those kept in two separte courses.
--- End quote ---
Why not.   The rest of the CF splits the indoctrination and the occupation training into separate courses.   You could have a CIC BMOQ and a BCIQ (basic cadet instructor qualification).

 
--- Quote from: the 48th regulator on April 03, 2005, 14:34:19 ---
--- Quote --- I'm not going to argue each individual case, because I'm not trying to say it's alright for NCMs not to salute an officer.   I'm just explaining why so many of us feel this way.
--- End quote ---
What's this us stuff?? you got a mouse in yer pocket?   I never felt that way, I have been 031 over 15 years.   Sure there is that feeling that the cadets are our little brothers and sisters, but we are all of the same regimental family.   The CIC's in our regiment are respected as an officer holding a commission in OUR regimental family, and are offered the same High five.
--- End quote ---
I think this was addressed best by Mark C when he posted on saluting foreign officers:
--- Quote from: Mark C on September 12, 2004, 14:33:50 ---Saluting foreign officers is an idicator of your OWN professionalism as a Canadian soldier, Full-Stop.  

Now ask yourself if you should be saluting them.....

I cannot believe that this topic has gone back and forth for 7 pages!     What is it about simple international military courtesy that so many here don't get?!?!
--- End quote ---
Saluting the CIC (or one's lack of desire to do so) should not even be a discussion point.


The Padre discussion has a new home: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,29182.0.html


CrashBear:


--- Quote from: MCG on April 03, 2005, 04:48:51 ---If the CDS came to you tomorrow and asked for you to draft a CF policy recommendation on where the CIC belonged, would you build your argument around what the government of 1902 wanted?   We are not all idiots here, and we know how things are.   However, when debating how things should be, it's a pretty weak argument to throw up your hands and say "the legislation says it should be this way, so that is obviously the way it should be."


--- End quote ---

As a matter of fact it would be included under historical data.

It has however been well identified that the CIC Officers training is lacking, thus my previous posts identified where I felt the thrust of CIC Training should be.   Additional military training is in fact required and is required however not to the extend that the PRes would mandate. The jobs are just not the same.

A standardized basic course should be implemented, however one has to look at the funding required to do same and as well the additional time commitment being asked of the CIC Officer. I believe the last study that was conducted showed that the average CIC Officer works an average of 149 days a year of combined payed and voluntary service in order to adequately perform their duties at the unit level. I have been lead to belbelieveat this time does not include the summer deployment time for those as a summer training centre.   The old terms of service consited of 20 days per year and after the study was boosted to 23 days per year for corp officers and 33 days for unit CO's.

I feel that after enrolment that the CIC Officer should have to participate in the same Basic training prgram that exists for other Reserve Officers and then should be tailored to youth oriented problems.   Any other training should be avaialable as an On Line type of training model with the Officer given a timeline to complete.

The slagging that this forum has produced does not help in identifying how the CIC Officer can become a better trained and effective Officer. Whether the CIC Officer is respected by members of the PRes is a non issue. The vast majority of the RegF personnel that I have had the pleasure to work with with in the CCM have conducted them selves as total professionals.   Some comments made within this form by some including Directing Staff have shown a complete lack of professionalism.  

It is good to have a discussion on how to improve or remove a program within any govt service being provided.

Scott937:

I have been reading for a while, I made a decision to stay out of that education left turn that the thread took a while back. But, something that has been mentioned sort of irked me, the CIC as soldiers.
Now I will grant that the CIC are definately members of the CF and are officers properly commissioned by the Queen, they provide a necessary service to Canadian Youth,   but no where in my definition of soldier (I will leave the Navy and Airforce, to argue thier own sailor and Airman points) would a CIC be considered a soldier. Everyone in the CF aside from the CIC have a direct role in the domestic and international security of Canada. And no one should being up the dental and padres, because how do you keep a soldiers head in the game, if his jaw is rotting out and his wife left him for the mail man. They fill that direct support role, that being said that is not all that the do, Trinity enlightened us a few pages back, but a major function never the less.
One cannot say that inspiring the Canadian Youth to think fondly of the Canadian military, qualifies as direct support.

To those who that walked in the footsteps of soldiers and now choose to instruct youth, and to those who have decided to put on a uniform and accept the mantle of making better Canadian citizens through a military style organization, I say very well done, and a hearty thank you, you are doing the Canadian population a service and that should be commended.   Now to those CIC out there who are arguing that they are just like the PRes or Reg Force and feel the need to consistantly tell people that there commission is a real commission and they are soldiers, please get over yourselves, maybe you aren't in it for the kids(good question to ask yourselves) and just maybe you don't have what it takes to PRes or Reg Force and you have to go through life as a wannabee, and are using the CIC as a conduit for those crushed dreams of serving the the army.

Saluting issue, as MCG just posted is a Dead issue, however, I just wanted to add....to the Troops out there if you see a CIC officer comming, give him /her your best parade square salute(it speaks of your abilities, not his) and maybe you will be rewarded by the officer droping his papers/saluting with the wrong hand/etc... or best case that CIC was a former soldier who will respect you for you show of military form and ettiquette.

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