Author Topic: Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?! Even if in a Canadian overseas hospital!?!  (Read 70861 times)

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Offline Cliff

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Re: This is truely and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2005, 18:46:48 »
Peter Worthington has also been following the lives of kids born in Canada, whose parents moved to the US to work, and when they returned to Canada, found that they were no longer considered Canadian, even though they at no time declared themselves as Americans.   We have some screwed up rules in our "Bureaucracy" which are disenfranchising "real" Canadians.   The numbers now sound like they are astronomical.   It is nonsense to have these people pay to be reinstated as Canadians.   I wonder, what would happen if they all got together and declared that they wanted all their taxes to be paid to the nation that Human Resources Canada claims they are from.   How many billions of tax dollars would have been collected illegitimately by the Canadian Government in this scandalous case?

GW

I think that under the 1977 Citizenship Act, if you were born before 1977, it was almost impossible to lose your citizenship, unless you formally renunciated it..which required some paper-work.   Trudeau was real big about once youre a Canadian, you're always a Canadian.   But if you were born after that Act,   I think it became easier to lose citizenship. Any one else remember this? 

Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: This is truely and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2005, 19:00:07 »
Does that mean that they are subject to the German draft if it should ever come to that?
As I understand it, my son could be conscripted if he ever returned to Germany.  He has autism, so he wouldn't be in for very long.  It would be fun to be a fly on the wall at the recruit depot, though...

CHIMO,  Kat
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Re: This is truely and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2005, 19:22:29 »
I have 2 of my kids born in the base hospital in Lahr, 88 and 91.   They were issued a German Birth Certificate, not Canadian.   Anyone else experience this?   I was told I had to register their births with the German Authorities.   This struck me as strange, but in CFE at the time, it was better not to question it...

CHIMO,   Kat

Kat,

I was born at the base hospital in Lahr and i have a german birth certificate.   From what i was explaine by the canadian government , i had untill the age of 21 to decide which country i wanted to be a citizen of.   If i had made no written decision i would default to canadian citizenship.   I chose to retain dual-citizenship and thus i would have to face the german draft .


EDIT : almost forgot.............CHIMO !
« Last Edit: January 23, 2005, 19:26:35 by aesop081 »

Offline mo-litia

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Re: This is truely and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2005, 19:56:46 »
I am contacting my MP via his website and sending him a copy of this story:
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html

I strongly suggest that everybody who reads this post does the same thing; this is unacceptable!   :rage:

For those who would like an easy link to finding your Member of Parliament by entering your postal code, here is the link to that site:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/people/house/PostalCode.asp?Source=SM

Enter your code, click on your MP's name and then click contact information for your MP's email address.  

As CF members, we must speak up as this government will never cease their idiocy unless they are shamed into doing so!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2005, 20:00:31 by mo-litia »
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Offline Torlyn

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Re: This is truly and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2005, 20:35:05 »
I think that under the 1977 Citizenship Act, if you were born before 1977, it was almost impossible to lose your citizenship, unless you formally renunciated it..which required some paper-work.  Trudeau was real big about once youre a Canadian, you're always a Canadian.  But if you were born after that Act,  I think it became easier to lose citizenship. Any one else remember this? 

It's actually since 1977 it's impossible to loose citizenship.  You can renounce it, but not loose it.  I believe that prior to 1977, you could only loose it if you were born overseas, (ie Germany) and did not declare your citizenship to the CDN authorities before you turned 21...  Which would actually mean you would have to have been born (for that situation) before Feb 14, 1956...

T

Offline LF(CMO)

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Re: This is truely and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2005, 21:36:09 »
"Do not relinqish your originals for any reason"

 Good advice Mike, but you have to send in your ORIGINAL Certificate of citizenship if you were not born in Canada with your passport application.  I had this 'feeling' that it was dangerous to let the original out of my hand, but the secretary at the MP's office assured me that I would get it back.

 BTW: In my family we have been going back and forth between the US and Canada for about 3 generations.  I claim to be a US citizen as I was born there and Canadian as my mother was a Canadian.  All our kids were born here and have certficates as US citizens born abroad as my wife is a US citizen. 

 Here is a Question?  If you have taken the Oath to join the CF, do you lose your US citizenship?  That is what I've been told.  So if that's true then I quess I'm not a US citizen.
"EVERY MAN THINKS MEANLY OF HIMSELF FOR NEVER HAVING BEEN A SOLDIER", Samuel Johnson

Offline Cliff

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Re: This is truly and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2005, 21:57:53 »
It's actually since 1977 it's impossible to loose citizenship.   You can renounce it, but not loose it.   I believe that prior to 1977, you could only loose it if you were born overseas, (ie Germany) and did not declare your citizenship to the CDN authorities before you turned 21...   Which would actually mean you would have to have been born (for that situation) before Feb 14, 1956...

T

Thanks for posting. Looks like I got it backwards!

Offline Jonsey

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Re: This is truely and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2005, 23:11:02 »
You know, sometimes, when I hear about stuff like this, it makes me want to reconsider moving to another country.   I doubt I ever will, but it's always there to consider.

Offline JAFMA

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Re: This is truely and utterly UNBELIEVABLE!!!
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2005, 23:35:04 »
Regarding this matter, has anybody bothered to look up what CFAO's  have to say about this. http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/026-09_e.asp.  My understanding is that it is up to the parents when they return to Canada to ensure that all the i's are dotted and the T's are crossed regarding any dependants born overseas.  Just like when you get over paid it is up to the member.  Remember we have the right people to talk to and they are the RMS Clerks.  Another question I have is this really a Military matter how many postings overseas do we have now 1 maybe 2 at the most.  That's if you don't include the embassies. As for Mr. Worthington well he is just another blow hard reporter that likes to makes mountains out of mole hills. But that is my opinion.

Offline DAA

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WERE YOU BORN TO MILITARY PARENTS OVERSEAS?
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2005, 05:04:34 »
Now this is absolutely incredible!

From the Toronto Sun Newspaper, Sunday Edition, by Peter Worthington.

You are not going to believe this.

At first I didn't, but I do now: Are you aware that someone born in a hospital on a Canadian military base overseas to Canadian parents in the Armed Forces is not automatically a Canadian citizen?

This, despite having a Canadian birth certificate and social insurance number (SIN)?

Krista Bruton-Anderson is such a case.

She was born in the military hospital on the Canadian base at Lahr, Germany, where her father was a soldier (Intelligence Corps). A birth certificate was issued.

When her parents returned to Canada, so did Krista, where she has lived ever since.

Life was normal until she grew up, got married -- then tried to get her SIN changed to her married name.

The ministry of human resources rejected her birth certificate and said no, she wasn't a Canadian citizen, and destroyed her social insurance card.

When contacted, DND public affairs at first insisted there must be a mistake -- children born overseas to service personnel, especially on a Canadian base, were automatically citizens.

Citizenship and immigration in Ottawa also believed being born on a Canadian military base to Canadian military parents and possessing a Canadian birth certificate was proof of citizenship.

Krista knows otherwise.

It seems Human Resources Canada has changed the rules since 9/11, without the apparent knowledge of DND and immigration.

In 2003, the Oakville office of Human Resources Canada sent Krista's birth certificate and SIN card to Ottawa with the application for a new card in her married name, Anderson.

"A few weeks later I was contacted and told my application had been returned as I didn't have proper proof of Canadian citizenship, and that my SIN card had been destroyed," Anderson says. "I have been without a SIN card ever since."

At first she thought it was a bureaucratic mix-up.

No, she was told, it was new security legislation after 9/11, and that she'd have to obtain "proper proof" of citizenship, pay a $75 application fee, get passport photos, have her identity certified by a notary public and then be prepared to wait eight months while the backlog of citizenship applications was processed.

"Needless to say I was astounded," Krista says. "I've lived in Canada constantly since my parents came home when I was around 1 year old. Today I am a Canadian but not a Canadian -- no identity, no SIN. Why should I have to pay to get citizenship when I've never been anything but a Canadian citizen?"

Why indeed? Her father, Dave Bruton, who retired from the military after 37 years, is equally upset. "This should concern every service family abroad. A child born on a Canadian Forces base, in a Forces hospital, under the Canadian flag, to Canadian citizens, should have all the rights of citizenship as if they were born anywhere in Canada."

That was exactly the view of DND when I called them. It was also the view of Immigration Canada, when I called. That said, it seems Human Resources Canada is the final authority.

Krista has contacted her MP's constituency office, where she was treated sympathetically, but without results.

I phoned the human resources and was told that since 9/11 a birth certificate of someone born outside Canada is no longer acceptable as proof of citizenship. A Canadian citizenship card is necessary for a SIN card - and that has to be applied for, at a $75 fee. Tough luck, Krista.

The constituency office of her MP (Liberal Gary Carr) wants to help, but it's helpless when confronted by a bureaucracy whose departments can't agree. Without a social insurance number, Krista is virtually stateless, and she is filing a formal complaint.

I wonder how many of our married Armed Forces personnel overseas realize their second-class status? It's a slap in the face of our military. How dare an agency of government reduce the families of Armed Forces personnel to supplicants and charge them money to prove their citizenship? What kind of security is that anyway?

What kind of prime minister is Paul Martin that he allows such an indignity imposed on those who serve the country overseas?
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Offline George Wallace

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Regarding this matter, has anybody bothered to look up what CFAO's have to say about this. http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/026-09_e.asp. My understanding is that it is up to the parents when they return to Canada to ensure that all the i's are dotted and the T's are crossed regarding any dependants born overseas. Just like when you get over paid it is up to the member. Remember we have the right people to talk to and they are the RMS Clerks. Another question I have is this really a Military matter how many postings overseas do we have now 1 maybe 2 at the most. That's if you don't include the embassies. As for Mr. Worthington well he is just another blow hard reporter that likes to makes mountains out of mole hills. But that is my opinion.

Please read the Posts and some history.   This affects hundreds of thousands of Canadians.   I have a brother who was born at 1 (F) Wing Marville France in 1963 (as I posted earlier), and he has run into this problem at the border when bringing his family back from a vacation in Florida.   When he was 21 he had to choose citizenship, and this bureaucratic blundering has still affected him years later.   I know several serving members, and know there are hundreds more, who have been born of CF parents on tours to France, Germany, Belgium, US, UK, etc, who are now faced with this ridiculous policy by one Government Dept, contrary to several other Departments.  

I see that your impression of the Press is very tainted.   Mr. Worthington is a former PPCLI officer and Korea Vet.   His father is the "Father of the Royal Canadian Armour Corps".   I'd say that he was far from a blow hard reporter.   He is a strong supporter of the Armed Forces.  He has also been keeping updates on another group of Canadian 'children' who have been disenfranchised in a similar manner for years.  

GW
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 07:39:53 by George Wallace »
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Offline Gunnar

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So, since she's no longer a citizen, can she get the foreign rate for her income tax, back-dated to the year she first started paying it?

Oh yes, and a refund of her UI and CPP premiums?  I'm sure this would cost the government less than fixing her citizenship issues.  ;)
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Offline Torlyn

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So, since she's no longer a citizen, can she get the foreign rate for her income tax, back-dated to the year she first started paying it?


Ah, she's still a citizen, she just needs to apply to C&I for PROOF of citizenship...  Which can take from 9months to a year.  However, one phonecall from her MP should have things fixed by the end of the week.  I know that every federal department has different citizenship proof requirements, and just because HRDC doesn't believe her documentation doesn't mean she's not Canadian...  :)

T

Offline Brad Sallows

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Go to http://www.cic.gc.ca :boring:/english/citizen/bornout%2Dinfo.html:

"Find out if you are a Canadian citizen. Learn about what you might have to do to keep your citizenship."
...

"You are a Canadian citizen if you were born outside Canada and:

you were born after February 14, 1977; and
you had a parent who was Canadian at the time of your birth.
 
Was your parent also born outside Canada to a Canadian parent?
If your Canadian parent was also born outside Canada to a Canadian parent, (your grandparent), you may need to take steps to keep your citizenship. You need to take these steps before you turn 28 years old. If you do not take these steps, you could lose your Canadian citizenship. This is true even if you are living in Canada."

...
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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I don't know if I have this exactly right but we used to call it the triangle run.

Dependent wives of Canadian soldiers in 4CIBG (Soest, Werl, etc) gave birth (in almost every case) in the Canadian wing of the British Military Hospital in Iserlohn.

1.   A day or two after the blessed event the appropriate platoon commander went for a visit, after stopping by the BOR to pick up a packet of papers from the Superintending Clerk.  

2.   Before congratulating the new parents the platoon commander stopped by hospital admin where he picked up yet more forms and, aided by the hospitals clerks, filled in most of the blanks on both sets.   Next came a visit to the happy parents who finished the details (name, etc) and signed the forms.

3.   Then the platoon commander drove down to Bonn, to the Canadian Embassy, where there was much shuffling and stamping of papers a smaller, replacement packet was given to the platoon commander who returned it to the BOR in Soest from whence, after a bit more shuffling and stamping and recording, it â “ some sort of birth certificate or proof of citizenship or some such â “ was then forwarded to the company office and the soldier concerned.

The adjutant was quite adamant about doing this right, the first time, so I suspect we had some knowledge of citizenship issues even then and we appear to have had 'workarounds' of some sort.   I think similar 'systems' applied in most regiments/garrisons up North, but I fear that personnel administration was much more centralized and, consequently, much less effective after about 1970, when a much weaken 4CMBG moved to Lahr.

If memory serves ...
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Offline George Wallace

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ROJ

You are talking of a time when there were two complete RCAF Fighter Wings and an Air Division Headquarters in France and another two complete Fighter Wings in Germany, along with an Army Brigade up in Northern Germany, with numerous other Canadian Detachments in England, Belgium, and such.  These are the children who are running into the problems today, not due to documentation of the day, but bureaucratic fumbling here in Canada by Human Resources Canada today.  Some brain here has thought it was proper to disenfranchise all these children with a simple stroke of a pen, and no thought of who they were.

GW
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Offline 735_winnipeg

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someone in Human Resources Canada needs to be linch.  :)

Offline Corpsbrat

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Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2005, 20:01:55 »
I came across this and was horrified to find this situation is true, I was lucky to be born in Canada before we were shipped off to Germany.
I can't believe our Government would do this to the Military Brats out there.
Read Below.
Corpsbrat :cdn:
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/907704.html
 
Sun, January 23, 2005 Forces' babies deprived By Peter Worthington -- For the Toronto Sun You are not going to believe this. At first I didn't, but I do now: Are you aware that someone born in a hospital on a Canadian military base overseas to Canadian parents in the Armed Forces is not automatically a Canadian citizen? This, despite having a Canadian birth certificate and social insurance number (SIN)? Krista Bruton-Anderson is such a case. She was born in the military hospital on the Canadian base at Lahr, Germany, where her father was a soldier (Intelligence Corps). A birth certificate was issued. When her parents returned to Canada, so did Krista, where she has lived ever since. Life was normal until she grew up, got married -- then tried to get her SIN changed to her married name. The ministry of human resources rejected her birth certificate and said no, she wasn't a Canadian citizen, and destroyed her social insurance card. When contacted, DND public affairs at first insisted there must be a mistake -- children born overseas to service personnel, especially on a Canadian base, were automatically citizens. Citizenship and immigration in Ottawa also believed being born on a Canadian military base to Canadian military parents and possessing a Canadian birth certificate was proof of citizenship. Krista knows otherwise. It seems Human Resources Canada has changed the rules since 9/11, without the apparent knowledge of DND and immigration. In 2003, the Oakville office of Human Resources Canada sent Krista's birth certificate and SIN card to Ottawa with the application for a new card in her married name, Anderson. "A few weeks later I was contacted and told my application had been returned as I didn't have proper proof of Canadian citizenship, and that my SIN card had been destroyed," Anderson says. "I have been without a SIN card ever since." At first she thought it was a bureaucratic mix-up. No, she was told, it was new security legislation after 9/11, and that she'd have to obtain "proper proof" of citizenship, pay a $75 application fee, get passport photos, have her identity certified by a notary public and then be prepared to wait eight months while the backlog of citizenship applications was processed. "Needless to say I was astounded," Krista says. "I've lived in Canada constantly since my parents came home when I was around 1 year old. Today I am a Canadian but not a Canadian -- no identity, no SIN. Why should I have to pay to get citizenship when I've never been anything but a Canadian citizen?" Why indeed? Her father, Dave Bruton, who retired from the military after 37 years, is equally upset. "This should concern every service family abroad. A child born on a Canadian Forces base, in a Forces hospital, under the Canadian flag, to Canadian citizens, should have all the rights of citizenship as if they were born anywhere in Canada." That was exactly the view of DND when I called them. It was also the view of Immigration Canada, when I called. That said, it seems Human Resources Canada is the final authority. Krista has contacted her MP's constituency office, where she was treated sympathetically, but without results. I phoned the human resources and was told that since 9/11 a birth certificate of someone born outside Canada is no longer acceptable as proof of citizenship. A Canadian citizenship card is necessary for a SIN card - and that has to be applied for, at a $75 fee. Tough luck, Krista. The constituency office of her MP (Liberal Gary Carr) wants to help, but it's helpless when confronted by a bureaucracy whose departments can't agree. Without a social insurance number, Krista is virtually stateless, and she is filing a formal complaint. I wonder how many of our married Armed Forces personnel overseas realize their second-class status? It's a slap in the face of our military. How dare an agency of government reduce the families of Armed Forces personnel to supplicants and charge them money to prove their citizenship? What kind of security is that anyway? What kind of prime minister is Paul Martin that he allows such an indignity imposed on those who serve the country overseas?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2005, 20:05:45 »
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,25808.0.html

Found a few in the Army Current Affairs & News topics.   ;D

GW
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Offline Corpsbrat

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Re: Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2005, 20:41:32 »
Thanks for pointing it out George. I was flabbergasted to say the least at the mess this is making of peoples lives. Here I thought I fought the good fight to help the Veteran's get their license plates for Alberta. (expected early next month)
Now we have a really serious fight with this. I am contacting the media in Calgary, perhaps they can do a story on this as well, I think  Military Brats  should be warned of this before they encounter a surprise they werent expecting.  Its a sad statement to our country when prostitues from Russia can be a Citizen in Canada without hassels but Military kids are not recognised as Canadian's. What next deportation? >:(
Corpsbrat :cdn:

Offline carpediem

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I don't know if I have this exactly right but we used to call it the triangle run.

Dependent wives of Canadian soldiers in 4CIBG (Soest, Werl, etc) gave birth (in almost every case) in the Canadian wing of the British Military Hospital in Iserlohn.

...
 some sort of birth certificate or proof of citizenship or some such â “ was then forwarded to the company office and the soldier concerned.

The adjutant was quite adamant about doing this right, the first time, so I suspect we had some knowledge of citizenship issues even then and we appear to have had 'workarounds' of some sort.  I think similar 'systems' applied in most regiments/garrisons up North, but I fear that personnel administration was much more centralized and, consequently, much less effective after about 1970, when a much weaken 4CMBG moved to Lahr.

If memory serves ...

This is my life, I was born in that time period (before 1970) at the British Army Hospital, Iserlohn. The birth certificate was a DND Certificate of Birth (DND 419) (signed wth that three colour pen that they used to use on the Permanent CF ID card) which looks very official but is only an interesting keepsake as it is not recognized by any government department other than the CF (who were good with it when I joined the reserves in '85).

When I was 21 I had to apply for and obtain a "Certificate of Canadian Citizenship". This consisted of looking up the documentation of my birth as described by ROJ in the national archives and after waiting a few months signing some papers and getting a big certificate and a wallet card. When I completed this process it was at the same department where new immigrants went to apply for their papers and I went through the exact same bureaucracy but I didn't have to swear an oath or take a test, it felt as if I was grudgingly being acknowledged as a citizen.

My wife was born in a small town in Ontario. She has a typical birth certificate of the time (eaisly reproducible with any color photo copier  :) and she merily produces this and is automatically given access to SIN card, passport, drivers license etc. I have my nice official federal DND 419 but I can't use it. I need to pay $75 and wait months to PROVE that I may in fact be a Canadian just because my dad was serving his country overseas. All the paperwork was done at the time of my birth, heck they eventually found it in the archieves. Why do I have to have an archieve search done? Why are others original certificates of birth abroad not recognized on the spot? They should at least wave the fee for the first application for a citizenship card. We are treated like we are TRYING to immigrate, we are already citezens, we always were, we deserve a little more respect. /rant off

Guess we are just another set of Canadians that the government doesn't respect...  (and yes, my little inconvenienc does not compare to some other peoples mistreatment (i.e., Veterans) by the bureaucracy / govt)
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Offline RN PRN

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This is the responce that I recieved from my MP Carol Skelton

Recently, there was an issue raised in the media regarding SIN cards and citizenship issues for Canadians born abroad.
 
Minister Dryden's office, in conjuction with Citizenship and Immigration and DND has apparently resolved this matter.
 
Constituents are directed to call the SIN Call Centre.  I'm told that the staff has now been briefed to handle such inquiries at:
 
English: 800 206 7218
French: 800 808 6352
 
DND is working on a process that will soon recognize the Certificate of Birth Abroad as a valid document for SIN purposes and questions on this matter can be directed to 1-888- 242- 2100.
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I too had kids born in Lahr (90, 92) and we were issued "International Birth certificates"  Thus the kids are not German citizens. I believe this is what you probably have.  Check it out.   We also have Canadian Citizen Certificates for both kids with photo ID.
Hopefully these are still valid!!

Offline mo-litia

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Well, it's been almost a month since I sent an email to my MP, (Edmonton--Mill Woods--Beaumont, Alberta
KILGOUR, David (Liberal).), and I have yet to hear a response of any sort from his office.

Thanks, Mr. Kilgour - I should have known that a self-serving politician such as yourself (He was a Conservative until he jumped ship about 10 years ago.), couldn't be bothered to respond to an issue such as this. I know who I'm NOT voting for next election!!

Cheers
"LET THE EASTERN BASTARDS FREEZE IN THE DARK"
- Popular Alberta bumper sticker from the Trudeau era; placed here in homage to all Liberals across Canada

OPTION A:
http://www.conservative.ca/

OPTION B:
http://www.separationalberta.com/
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Offline HFXCrow

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I was born in Iserlohn, Germany in 1970, have a high security clearance and a green and blue passport.

I am a little confused.

Crow
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 22:51:58 by NCRCrow »
Enjoying the ride and doesn't want to get off