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Milnet.ca => Joint Forces => CANSOFCOM => Topic started by: Luis_Rancagua on June 28, 2007, 17:26:44

Title: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Luis_Rancagua on June 28, 2007, 17:26:44
Here's an article that come directly from the Belleville Intelligencer news, confirming the news that the Federal Government is moving ahead with the proposal of re-instating the Airborne Regiment of Canada.
--------------------------------------------

Expansion depends on private land negotiations

By Luke Hendry
Local News - Wednesday, June 27, 2007 Updated @ 6:21:44 PM

The Intelligencer

CFB TRENTON — The promised creation of an airborne battalion here depends on federal negotiations to buy private land next to the base, Canada's defence minister said Wednesday.

Last fall the government began a study of the possibility of buying 990 acres north of the base for unspecified reasons. One widely-held theory was that the new space was needed to create facilities for the battalion of airborne soldiers the Conservatives promised in their election campaign.

But while several Trenton-related projects — from the purchase of new airplanes to funding for the air force museum — have been announced, there has been little news about the status of the promised airborne unit.

on Wednesday defence minister Gordon O'Connor said the federal public works department is still trying to buy the land.

"We're trying to acquire land at this moment," he said. "We have to wait and see whether we're successful in acquiring the land.


"I want to resolve the land issue first. If and when we acquire that land, then we can announce what we're proposing to do."

One rumour circulating locally reports the government may move the airborne project to CFB Bagotville, Que., should the Trenton deal fail. When asked for comment on the rumour, O'Connor expressed confidence in the land talks.

"From my point of view it's not going to fall through, but I'm hopeful the negotiations with respect to acquiring land will be successful."

O'Connor also revealed the landing date of the first C-17 Globemaster III heavy-lift air transports.

"It will arrive in the late afternoon, early evening of Aug. 9, but I think it will be open to the public on the 10th because it will be too late for any public event," he said. "That's the current schedule; it could change."

Four of the giant planes have been ordered by the government to relieve Canada's reliance upon hiring non-Canadian aircraft to move its gear around the world.

Plans for the new CC-130 Hercules planes also planned for Trenton, however, are less clear.

"The government is still negotiating the contract, and negotiating the industrial benefits" with manufacturer Lockheed-Martin, O'Connor said.

He added the deal will still happen "as long as the contract is signed and it's signed at the proper price and we get the benefits."

O'Connor was in Trenton to announce details of two long-awaited construction projects on the base. Together the plans are expected to bring $34 million and at least 85 jobs to the private sector.

O'Connor said a new air traffic control tower will replace the out-of-date one now in use, and several taxiways and an existing aircraft parking area, or ramp, will be rebuilt to provide permanent parking for the Globemasters.

"We're doing this with great urgency," he said, noting work on the taxiway areas will begin after this long weekend.

That contract has been awarded to Ontario's Miller Paving. The tower contract is expected to be tendered soon, but no date was announced.

"It is the duty of the government to make sure that these courageous men and women receive the support they deserve and need to succeed."

The ramp reconstruction is the first of a three-phase project at the base. The southeastern and western areas are scheduled to be rebuilt.

Three hangars to support existing planes plus the C-17s are expected, as are an upgraded fuel distribution system and a refinishing facility for the Aerospace Telecommunications Engineering Support Squadron.

"It's a good story for the whole area, because it benefits everyone," Quinte West Mayor John Williams said.

"It's only going to get better," he added, referring to the construction projects not yet tendered.

Belleville Mayor Neil Ellis agreed, adding it's good news for Belleville "because our communities are so interwoven."
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada is back
Post by: Hatchet Man on June 28, 2007, 17:43:09
I didn't see anything in that article about the Airborne coming back.  It just mentions the government is in talks to buy land for a possible "airborne battlion", which is very ambiguous and just speculation.  It could mean moving CSOR or 3RCR or nothing.  The last rumours if memory serves me right, were that DND were moving JTF 2 to the Trenton area, and again those were rumours nothing more.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada is back
Post by: geo on June 28, 2007, 17:46:50
An airborne capable battalion?... Is the MND alluding to the reactivation of the Canadian Airborne Regiment OR the assignment of an Airborne capable force?

The MND has been prone to shooting from the gums before placing the mind in gear.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: FinClk on June 29, 2007, 08:38:46
A battalion is far from being a regiment, only a third in fact, nor is "regiment" mentioned anywhere within the text above. Lets also not forget the "misprints" often found within the media broadcasts (both written and spoken) displaying their lack of understanding in the use of military terminology.

What I had been lead to believe from internal discussions was that a component of CSOR (read 1 Bn) would be situated in Trenton as a rapid reaction force. Further, if I recall correctly I had heard categoric statements that the Airborn Regt would not be coming back.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: 2 Cdo on June 29, 2007, 09:01:46
With infantry battalions already severely under-strength, I'm wondering where these troops will come from to man this unit? :o
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: alfie on June 29, 2007, 09:39:58
A story back on Dec 13th 2005 said the Tories would bring back airborn troops, Stephen Harper at the time said "a new airborne battalion".
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: geo on June 29, 2007, 10:02:22
Alfie,
A new airborne battalion does not = the CAR

The CAR is not a political football the gov't would be interested in carrying.
As things stand, there have been steps taken to "link" the pedigree of the 1st SSF with the CSOR / JTF2 combination & have done with it.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: FinClk on June 29, 2007, 11:07:09
One thing I think some are missing here is the distinct difference between a Battalion and a Regiment; 1 Regiment is composed of 3 Battalions.

Thus this reporters story in no way relates to the stand/formation/revival of any Regiment, only the placement of a potential Battalion which only equates to 1/3rd of a Regiment.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: geo on June 29, 2007, 11:13:34
Heh....
The CAR was always limited to 1 Bn.... though could have always grown to 3 Bns (I guess)
In the 70s there were the following examples....
the Canadian Guards - a 1 Bn Regiment,
the Queens Own Rifles - a 1 Bn Regiment (2 Bn if you count the Reserve Bn)
the Black Watch (RHR of C / RHC) a 2 Bn Regiment (3 Bn if you count the Reserve Bn)
the 3 Mech Commando
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: FusMR on June 29, 2007, 11:20:03
In the CDN regimental system, for the infantry a Regiment is a name, not a combat formation like the US one.  A regiment can go from 5 battalion like the R22eR to 1 like most of reserve regiment.  At the and, the CAR was in fact a battalion, no ?
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: MCG on June 29, 2007, 11:29:48
a component of CSOR (read 1 Bn) would be situated in Trenton
How large do you think CSOR is?

One rumour circulating locally reports the government may move the airborne project to CFB Bagotville, Que., should the Trenton deal fail. When asked for comment on the rumour, O'Connor expressed confidence in the land talks.
Does Bagotville have a training area?

With infantry battalions already severely under-strength, I'm wondering where these troops will come from to man this unit? :o
This would be my worry.  Let's flesh out our core competency before we try building more new specialists.

. . . I do notice that there is a lot of rumour generation going on in this thread.  Some people have reached conclusions about the capbadge (CAR, CSOR, etc) of the proposed unit while it does not even exist yet.  There is nearly nothing to go on in this thread that is newer than the information given during the last election.

Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: skyd1vr on June 29, 2007, 11:31:11
aren't all those guys with the maroon beret's sporting regimental cap badges technically 'airborne troops'...just gotta get them all in one place again. Hooah...one regret I had after leaving the grunts was not going airborne...
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: 3rd Herd on June 29, 2007, 12:24:23
With infantry battalions already severely under-strength, I'm wondering where these troops will come from to man this unit? :o


Out of the wood work were they have been hiding for the last eight or nine years. ;D
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: MCG on June 29, 2007, 13:57:36
aren't all those guys with the maroon beret's sporting regimental cap badges technically 'airborne troops'...just gotta get them all in one place again. 
If one considers existing troop numbers in the regiments, your proposal would make ineffective the third battalion in each regiment.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: skyd1vr on June 29, 2007, 14:09:15
When I was with the 1st Battalion, we pretty much figured the 3rd Battalion was ineffective anyways....seriously though, good point. Another reason to increase recruiting and bring the Battalion strengths back up again.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: FinClk on June 29, 2007, 14:27:56
I feared I would get a history or dictatic lesson on the official definition of "Regiment". Rather I was merely attemtping to point out the wording of the press article did not marry to the current "common" canadian construct of regiment. Not making an attempt at historical accuracy.

To that extent, didn't CAR have 3 CDO's which I was always lead to believe to representative of 3 Bn's of a regular Inf Regt? This goes back years in my earlier days in the field so curious to see if I had been mislead for all this time.

How large do you think CSOR is?
Question really is how large is CSOR supposed, or planned, to grow? Hence my mention of what I had been informed upon of intent for CSOR.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: skyd1vr on June 29, 2007, 14:35:48
To that extent, didn't CAR have 3 CDO's which I was always lead to believe to representative of 3 Bn's of a regular Inf Regt? This goes back years in my earlier days in the field so curious to see if I had been mislead for all this time.
Question really is how large is CSOR supposed, or planned, to grow? Hence my mention of what I had been informed upon of intent for CSOR.

Yeppers, 3 CDO's, each representing the three active infantry regiments. IIRC each CDO was about the size of a min strength rifle company.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Breacher41 on June 29, 2007, 15:09:49
With infantry battalions already severely under-strength, I'm wondering where these troops will come from to man this unit? :o

With the same phantom troops who'll bolster the ranks of the Maritime Commando Regiment
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Thucydides on June 29, 2007, 15:33:02
So far as I know, there is no specified size for a "Regiment" in the Canadian Armed Forces. At some point in the past (1800's) there was a movement to standardize Regiments in the British Army (and Imperial formations would have been expected to follow suit) on a two battalion format, with one battalion being the training and "depot" battalion while the other was the "active" battalion that actually did the fighting.

Memory fails me here, but I'm sure some reader can flesh out the details. This formation was standard for a long period of time, but certainly was cast off either before or during WW I; in Canadian history there were at least 14 battalions of the Canadian Mounted Rifles raised during the Great War.

Today, Regiments have settled on three battalions for the time being, there is no reason to suppose this arrangement is cast in stone.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Old Sweat on June 29, 2007, 16:05:00
Art,

The regimental system as you explained rose in the 1870s in the British Army, which had a large number of overseas commitments. Thus regiments were grouped on a two battalion basis, in some cases very much against their will. One battalion, on "war" establishment, would be out of the UK, while the other, on a "restricted" establishment, was stationed at home receiving and training recruits. As a rule, each year a draft was sent to the overseas battalion to bring it back up to strength. I think the battalions changed round every ten years or so, and overseas battalion could change stations every few years. It was very much the luck of the draw whether a battalion was sent to an overseas theatre where it could see action such as India, or to one where it simply garrisoned a colony, such as Bermuda,

There also were militia and territorial battalions, which could be identifed by their number. If my memory is correct, 3, and 4 were militia, while 5 and 6 were territorial, which came along after the Boer War. In wartime all this went by the wayside and as many battalions were formed as the market would bear.

To turn to the Canadian army, in the Great War numbered battalions were created, but these were eventually grouped into regional regiments, which were separate from the individual designations that might reflect affiliation with the militia regiment that spawned the battalion.

In the Second World War we had a number of battalions formed on mobilization in the Canadian Army Active Force. A militia regiment, say the 48th Highlanders, would be tasked to form a battalion of the active force. This new battalion was a separate entity from the militia battalion, and had no legal linkage despite being titled the 48th Highlanders. No one paid too much attention to that factoid and the members of both units as well as the press and the people at large considered them both to be parts of the regimental family. Other battalions of a regiment with both an active and a militia battalion could be formed for tasks such as home defence or the occupation force, and these might be the 3rd and 4th battalions.

In Canada, post-Korea we had six regiments, each of two battalions and a depot, except that the Vandoos had three and the Canadian Guards had four battalions (in the latter case for a short while). The Airborne Regiment came along in about 1967; rather than increase the manpower, the land forces went from 13 to 11 battalions, both the Canadian Guards and the Queen's Own Rifles dropped a battalion. In 1970 came a further reduction to ten battalions plus the airborne regiment. Each of the old permanent force regiments now had three battalions and a composite unit, 3 Mechanized Commando, was formed from members of 2 RCR and 2 PPCLI serving in Europe.

If one thing characterizes the Canadian army's approach to infantry organization it might be pragmatic opportunism, based in part on the realities of language and geography.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: skyd1vr on June 29, 2007, 16:11:08
There's a wiki on the CAR organization etc here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Airborne_Regiment seems to coincided with some of my foggy recollections.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Rider Pride on June 29, 2007, 23:33:46
I love the idle speculation.

Is JTF2 not suppose to move to Trenton sometime in the next 5 yrs?
How long in advance of that move would DND have to aquire land, build infastructure, and prepare for the unit's arrival so that the unit's readiness would not be affected?

It takes 2 yrs to build a building on a base....how long in advance of 1 CMBG's move were they renovating buildings?
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: MJP on June 29, 2007, 23:40:02
I love the idle speculation.

Is JTF2 not suppose to move to Trenton sometime in the next 5 yrs?
How long in advance of that move would DND have to aquire land, build infastructure, and prepare for the unit's arrival so that the unit's readiness would not be affected?

It takes 2 yrs to build a building on a base....how long in advance of 1 CMBG's move were they renovating buildings?
Well up until they moved there really...but you do have a point.  When I first read the story I thought exactly what you posted.   Sometime 1+1=2
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: skyd1vr on June 29, 2007, 23:41:35
Well up until they moved there really...but you do have a point.  When I first read the story I thought exactly what you posted.   Sometime 1+1=2

don't forget the murphy and political factor...both bases i've been on that had significant infastructure dollars input were closed....
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: the 48th regulator on June 29, 2007, 23:47:00
Well,

If someone was smart, opening up a bar 100 metres from the front gate and calling it Sassy's 2, they would make tons of cash!

hmmm......

dileas

tess
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Rider Pride on June 29, 2007, 23:50:46
It would not do well if that is the only unit  around to support it
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: the 48th regulator on June 30, 2007, 00:31:36
Ladies night Wednesdays,  Molson Canadian on tap and bottle.  Small Dance floor with the d.j suspended in the air.  A bunch of pool tables.  A donair place across the street.  Shooters or Beer for two bucks on Thursdays until 8pm.

The cash would pour in!

dileas

tess
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Greymatters on June 30, 2007, 01:32:38
It would not do well if that is the only unit  around to support it

Oh yes it would.  I think even a platoon of airborne could keep any bar flooding with cash!

Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Hatchet Man on June 30, 2007, 02:13:56
I love the idle speculation.

Is JTF2 not suppose to move to Trenton sometime in the next 5 yrs?
How long in advance of that move would DND have to aquire land, build infastructure, and prepare for the unit's arrival so that the unit's readiness would not be affected?

It takes 2 yrs to build a building on a base....how long in advance of 1 CMBG's move were they renovating buildings?

Thats what I said on the first page (bout JTF 2).
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Greymatters on June 30, 2007, 02:16:22
But sadly I dont believe they will recreate an Airborne Regiment. Not unless some future engagement can effectively use them.

Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: geo on June 30, 2007, 08:52:00
But sadly I dont believe they will recreate an Airborne Regiment. Not unless some future engagement can effectively use them.

But, it'll never go by the name of CAR....
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Rider Pride on June 30, 2007, 10:53:26
Airborne units are so passe...

SOF is the new airborne.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Technoviking on June 30, 2007, 11:37:27
But, it'll never go by the name of CAR....
Never say "Never". 

Remember when we were told "We'll never have tanks again?"  "We'll never promote you?" (the last one was about me) :D
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Greymatters on June 30, 2007, 12:22:25
"We'll never have tanks again?" 

Getting rid of tanks, now THAT was a stupid move! 
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Journeyman on June 30, 2007, 12:23:39
Getting rid of tanks, now THAT was a stupid move! 

Promoting Capt Sensible, now THAT was a stupid move!   >:D
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Technoviking on June 30, 2007, 15:48:41
Promoting Capt Sensible, now THAT was a stupid move!   >:D
Well, they had to: Lieutenant Sensible was, well, just stupid sounding!  :D
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Greymatters on July 01, 2007, 13:34:07
Formerly the 'Officer-Cadet Sensible'.... at one time your name was a contradiction in terms...
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Technoviking on July 01, 2007, 16:37:10
Formerly the 'Officer-Cadet Sensible'.... at one time your name was a contradiction in terms...
And before that it was "Master Corporal Sensible"....."Corporal Sensible"...heck, back in the Militia, at one time I was "Sergeant Sensible!"
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: ArmyVern on July 01, 2007, 17:09:41
And before that it was "Master Corporal Sensible"....."Corporal Sensible"...heck, back in the Militia, at one time I was "Sergeant Sensible!"

Just goes to show you that Reg or Res ... apparently no-one's got too much sense!!  >:D
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: GAP on July 01, 2007, 18:57:46
Gee, with all these changes, it actually morphed into an oxymoron...  ;D
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Greymatters on July 03, 2007, 02:09:10
And before that it was "Master Corporal Sensible"....."Corporal Sensible"...heck, back in the Militia, at one time I was "Sergeant Sensible!"

With much lower pension potential of course...therefore an adance to Captain was preferable.... now your sensibility pays out at a higher percentage (and possibly even indexed!)
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: RangerRay on July 03, 2007, 04:00:26
But, it'll never go by the name of CAR....

Canadian Parachute Regiment, perhaps...?  Were they not called that in World War II?
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: MikeM on July 03, 2007, 04:18:34
1st Canadian Parachute Battalion
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: AJFitzpatrick on July 03, 2007, 13:16:36
To be extremely nitpicky.
Was the WWII 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion considered to be part of The Parachute Regiment?
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: HolgerDanske on July 03, 2007, 13:23:57
To be extremely nitpicky.
Was the WWII 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion considered to be part of The Parachute Regiment?

I don't believe so but, I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: 3rd Herd on July 03, 2007, 13:39:40
I don't believe so but, I could be wrong.

INCORPORATION IN 6 BRIT AIRBORNE DIV

"The integration of 1 Cdn Para Bn into the British Airborne force was the next subject of discussion.............It was agreed that the unit would remain part of the Canadian Army in the United Kingdom, but would be placed under command of the Airborne Division.......On 7 Apr 43 N.D.H.Q. cabled the necessary authority for inclusion of 1 Cdn Para Bn in the 6th British Airborne Division.........Under "attachment" all Canadian troops in the Para Bn would become in effect British troops and would be subject to British military law, i.e. the statutes and regulations for the British Army during the period of "attachment"........................1 Cdn Para Bn had clearly established its reputation as an efficient unit in 6 Airborne Div.............................."

Source:The 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion; Organization and Training, July 1942-June 1944
http://www.dnd.ca/dhh/downloads/cmhq/cmhq138.pdf

And if you read the report you will see that there were TWO Cdn Para Bn's.

Edit to add another source:
Video:
Victory From Above - The First Canadian Parachute Battalion

"The bravery of Canada's Parachute Battalion knows no bounds. Among the most effective repellents of the Nazi threat in World War II, the battalion has earned a formidable reputation in military circles across the globe. This release offers a..."

Boegel, Gary.  Boys of the Clouds: An Oral History of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion 1942-1945 Trafford Publishing (May 3, 2005)
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: RECON-MAN on July 04, 2007, 03:25:47
THIS WOULD BE GOOD MORAL BUSTER TO THE FORCES.AFTER ALLTHESE YEARS OF NEGLET.
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Big Foot on July 04, 2007, 04:29:04
Formerly the 'Officer-Cadet Sensible'.... at one time your name was a contradiction in terms...
Hey! I resemble that comment! Errr... i meant to say resent...
Title: Re: Airborne Regiment of Canada could be back soon
Post by: Aden_Gatling on July 04, 2007, 10:58:05
THIS WOULD BE GOOD MORAL BUSTER

Aha! Busting Morals ... maybe that's why they said you'd never be promoted, Mr. Sensible!   ;D
Title: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: 211RadOp on November 27, 2007, 10:03:34
Kingston Whig Standard (http://www.kingstonwhigstandard.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=793937&auth=Luke+Hendry)


Posted By Luke Hendry

Canada's Department of National Defence still wants to buy land north of CFB Trenton, but Osprey News has learned officials will settle for much less than the ideal amount.

In written answers to Osprey News questions, DND spokesman Dave Martin said the DND still wants to buy about 401 hectares (990 acres) of land between the base, RCAF Road, Meyers Creek Road and Whites Road.

But, for the first time, he added the government can work with less land if landowners won't sell the full amount.

"The minimum requirement is for 220 hectares," Martin said.

That figure is equal to about 544 acres, or roughly 55 per cent of the total desired area.

The government has never released specific details of why it wants the land. Yesterday, Martin would say only that it "is required for CFB Trenton expansion." He added the department is not looking at land anywhere else except within the original area.

To date, the DND has bought about six hectares (15 acres) near the base. Martin said efforts to acquire more land continue, but that he could release little information, including the federal budget for the land acquisition project.

"DND does have expenditure authority from Treasury Board to proceed with this land acquisition," he said. "However, given that negotiations are currently taking place, it would be inappropriate to share numbers."

Some residents have raised the issue of expropriation, wondering if the government would take their land should they refuse to sell. Martin said that is not in the current plan.

"DND has no intention of pursuing expropriation as a means to acquire any of the desired properties at this time," he said.
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: Fiji on November 27, 2007, 14:38:51
Looks like JTF2 Really is moving to Trenton eh?
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: Old Sweat on November 27, 2007, 15:07:59
What leads you to that conclusion?
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: retiredgrunt45 on November 27, 2007, 16:37:02
The new land expansion is more likely to build new hangers to house the four new C-17 beasts we just purchased.

 But at this point it's all speculation.
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: PuckChaser on November 27, 2007, 16:45:49
Bigger Tim Hortons?
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: Good2Golf on November 27, 2007, 17:39:23
Heavy-lift blimps?
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 27, 2007, 18:06:49
JTF 2 (remember that campaign promise to put a new airborne battalion at Trenton)?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2006/04/i-wonder-when-this-unit-will-be-moved.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: geo on November 27, 2007, 19:53:17
Well, before we start housing JTF2, someone has to develop accomodations for 4 C17s, their equipment and their crews.  Then there's the CH47 Chinooks that will be coming down the pipe.  Then there will be the CC130Js that'll come in at some time in the future, etc, etc, etc......

Don't think there is an immediate and pressing need to install an Airborne Bn in Trenton (or any other Cdn base).
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on November 27, 2007, 20:06:50
Don't think there is an immediate and pressing need to install an Airborne Bn in Trenton (or any other Cdn base).

There is still Mountain View................
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 27, 2007, 20:20:34
geo: But surely the Conservatives take their (silly in several cases) defence promises seriously?

Conservative campaign promises: other shoes drop/CF strength increases
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/02/conservative-campaign-promises-other.html
 
Campaign promises and JTF 2
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/01/campaign-promises-and-jtf-2.html

Stupid Conservative defence promises
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2006/08/stupid-conservative-defence-promises.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: ArmyVern on November 28, 2007, 07:13:42
Bigger Tim Hortons?

Well hey, there's a new one going up in these parts nice & close to the front gate.

I ask one thing --

Can ALL the people with the long lists for courses make sure that they use this one??

Then I'll go to one of the other 3 ...  >:D
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: geo on November 28, 2007, 08:39:17
Vern.... might suggest to the Tim Horton planners to have their drive thru window's roof clearance high enough to clear an MLVW.... I remember seeing the eaves being torn off the one in the Valcartier Canex shopping centre getting torn off.....
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: begbie on November 28, 2007, 10:34:58
If I remember the conversion factor correctly, 1 km sq = 100 hectares.  So the land quoted in the article is roughly 4 km sq.  Not a huge amount of land.
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: aesop081 on November 28, 2007, 10:58:01
Then there's the CH47 Chinooks that will be coming down the pipe. 

Those are not designated to be based in Trenton.


Quote
Then there will be the CC130Js that'll come in at some time in the future, etc, etc, etc......

Not all CC-130s are based in Trenton.
Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: Mr. Bumpy on November 28, 2007, 11:55:09
Well hey, there's a new one going up in these parts nice & close to the front gate.

I ask one thing --

Can ALL the people with the long lists for courses make sure that they use this one??

Then I'll go to one of the other 3 ...  >:D


The one by Sobeys is the better one.  ;D
Title: Trenton Step Closer to Housing Airborne Inf?
Post by: Bread Guy on January 17, 2008, 11:18:19
Shared with the usual disclaimer.....

Airborne may drop in Trenton
Luke Hendry, Belleville Intelligencer, 17 Jan 08
Article link (http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=860570&auth=Luke+Hendry)

The plan to establish an airborne infantry unit in Trenton has taken a major step forward due to the purchase of a key piece of land north of CFB Trenton, officials announced Wednesday.

"We closed the sale on the purchase of the third property (Tuesday)," said Meeta Bhimani, communications director for Public Works and Government Services Canada.

The ministry is handling land purchases on behalf of the Department of National Defence (DND).

"It's about 305 acres," she said of the new land. "We're continuing negotiations with the other properties."

To date, the government has bought a total of about 130 hectares (320 acres).

Officials have told The Intelligencer the DND wants about 401 hectares as part of a plan to expand the base, though it will settle for about 220 hectares.

Northumberland-Quinte West MP Rick Norlock was quick to trumpet the sale as "the major purchase" in the federal quest for land.

"The major piece of property, sort of the linchpin of the purchases, was finalized at the beginning of this week," said Norlock. "That sort of paves the way for more concrete planning on the part of the (defence) department."

Norlock also confirmed the government's intent for the land.

"I have said from Day 1 that we intend to deliver an additional 650 people, an airborne unit, to CFB Trenton, and this is one of the big steps along the way to making that happen," Norlock said. "We'll have to wait and see about the timelines."

It has long been a promise of the Conservative government to establish an airborne infantry unit in Trenton. And while the Tories have followed through with other promises affecting the base - two new air transport fleets, $400 million in infrastructure development and funding for the neighbouring National Air Force Museum of Canada - the airborne issue has appeared to be in limbo.

Defence staff have refused to comment on why the department needs the land, saying only that it is for "expansion of CFB Trenton."

It has been reported that instead of creating a new airborne unit the Tories would instead move Canada's Joint Task Force 2 special forces unit to Trenton. Norlock, though, said he was not allowed to comment on details of the coming unit.

"I can't confirm that," he said.

In the meantime, the latest land purchase means that after months without acquiring much land, the government is now far closer to its minimum requirement of 220 hectares.

"That's great news as far as I'm concerned - great news for the city and great news for the whole area," said Quinte West Mayor John Williams.

He said city staff have fielded recent DND inquiries about municipal services such as sewer and water in the area.

"It tells me they're starting to crank it up," he said of the proposed expansion.

"Indications are it's going to be quite an expansion - probably more people and more construction," said Williams, adding it's particularly good for an area suffering economic problems.

"It's nice to be in an area where you have this type of thing happening, and we're fortunate," he said. "That again is a huge indication how much investment the government is going to put into this base and this area.

"The area has always been extremely supportive of the base," he said. "Maybe that has something to do with it (the expansion). We've always had good relationships, which I think speaks well of the community. I think people realize how much that means; it makes sense to do this here."

Staff at National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa, meanwhile, said no interviews on the subject could be granted Wednesday.

Title: Re: Trenton Step Closer to Housing Airborne Inf?
Post by: karl28 on January 17, 2008, 11:26:08
            Well I live in Trenton  and would welcome the move of the new unit .  Does any one have any ideas what the unit would be with out breaking any op sec I have heard rumours about JTF or CSOR but there just rumours  .   
Title: Re: Trenton Step Closer to Housing Airborne Inf?
Post by: geo on January 17, 2008, 13:43:51
Karl,
To ramp up a new unit, the forces need to find 650-750 warm bodies...
Of these warm bodies, it is necessary to that a good portion of these men & women have to be Leaders - both Officers and NCOs.

All three regiments / all 9 battalions are challenged as it is to maintain full strength.... so a new battalion in Trenton is a pipe dream.

Do we steal an Airborne coy from each regiment & create something that will look and feel like the old Canadian Airborne Regiment?
If we do that, we aren't doing the Infantry regiments any favours - are we?

Do we move take a unit that already exists, has mobility as part of their mandate.....

You tell me?
Title: Re: Trenton Step Closer to Housing Airborne Inf?
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 17, 2008, 14:02:48
Karl,
To ramp up a new unit, the forces need to find 650-750 warm bodies...
Of these warm bodies, it is necessary to that a good portion of these men & women have to be Leaders - both Officers and NCOs.

All three regiments / all 9 battalions are challenged as it is to maintain full strength.... so a new battalion in Trenton is a pipe dream.

Do we steal an Airborne coy from each regiment & create something that will look and feel like the old Canadian Airborne Regiment?
If we do that, we aren't doing the Infantry regiments any favours - are we?

Do we move take a unit that already exists, has mobility as part of their mandate.....

You tell me?
 

That's just a very small part of the big picture, and there is breathing room to start sorting that out.

Before they move there, there will be years of assessments and approvals. Design, tenders and quotes. Building of systems infrastucture and above ground construction.

No large formation is moving there, anywhere in the foreseeable future, to a turn key operation. At least not onto that parcel.
Title: Re: Trenton Step Closer to Housing Airborne Inf?
Post by: geo on January 17, 2008, 14:24:36
you got it recceguy....

I was alluding to the same thing.... going at it thru the back door... but headed in the same direction.
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton
Post by: Technoviking on January 17, 2008, 14:50:37
From what I hear around the water cooler, NDHQ is moving to Trenton ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton
Post by: MCG on January 17, 2008, 14:54:21
Does any one have any ideas what the unit would be ... I have heard rumours about JTF or CSOR but there just rumours.   
Rumours: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,56849.0/all.html
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton
Post by: Bubbles on January 17, 2008, 20:29:43
Yeah IMO this land will more than likely be land set aside for the pending arrival of JTF 2 and possibly other infrastructure upgrades to support the C-17s and such.
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton
Post by: karl28 on January 18, 2008, 01:16:33
          MCG  and Geo
 
Thanks for the link  and info . 
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 19, 2008, 23:03:35
And maybe a CC-177 hangar?
http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=862377&auth=Ernst+Kuglin

Quote
The eye-popping numbers in federal dollars pouring into CFB Trenton may not have ended with announcements this week of major land sales and the purchase of new transport planes.

Two major projects with a combined construction value estimated at $367 million were posted Thursday on Public Works Canada procurement website, known as MERX, by Defence Construction Canada.

According to the tender calls, the government is asking for "expressions of interest" for the construction of a $156-million maintenance hangar at CFB Trenton.

Deadline for submissions has been posted from Jan. 22 to Feb. 5.

A second expression of interest posted by Defence Construction Canada calls for a multi-functional training and administrative campus worth an estimated $220 million. The expression of interest does not specify CFB Trenton, but states 'eastern Ontario,' according to the MERX website.

Defence spokeswoman Maria Drake said in an interview she could not pinpoint any specific region or location in eastern Ontario.

The submission deadline has been posted for Jan. 23-24

It's believed the training campus will be constructed on the 305 acres purchased by the federal government to the north of CFB Trenton and confirmed this past week.

There's also speculation it will be home to the Joint Task Force 2 special forces unit. Defence department officials declined to comment on the possibility, but military analysts have said Trenton is the logical home for a new base for JTF 2 owing to the rapid deployment capability that comes with the air base adjacent to the camp...

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton
Post by: mudman on January 20, 2008, 23:26:40
I would not be surprised if it for a golf course, with everything that is planned for the base (around the runway) rumor is that they will have to close or move the golf course that is there now. It may sound stupid but it is a air force base after all. ;D
Title: Re: JTF-2 plans $220M move
Post by: geo on January 22, 2008, 12:26:22
Heh.... I guess Base defence exercises at CFB Trenton will get interesting over the next couple of years....
Title: Re: JTF-2 plans $220M move
Post by: BulletMagnet on January 22, 2008, 12:28:48
One has to wonder if it would not just be easier to move all Operational CANASOF units to the same base.....
Title: Re: JTF-2 plans $220M move
Post by: Good2Golf on January 22, 2008, 21:41:38
Indeed, Haggis. 

Folks, on topic, please.  Move and construction, etc...


The Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton (or maybe just the JTF 2)
Post by: karl28 on January 22, 2008, 22:20:24
            Oh my god the local Trenton news was actually right for once .  Now I am so very afraid  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton (or maybe just the JTF 2)
Post by: SF2 on January 23, 2008, 09:14:16
wait for a press release later this week.......
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton (or maybe just the JTF 2)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 23, 2008, 22:33:37
Bubbles: In the late 80s the whole point of having the RCMP's SERT (which JTF 2 replaced, much smaller then than now) close to Ottawa was to enable a very rapid response, by the best trained people possible, to a hostage-taking incident.  It would seem (and with some reason) that that sort of terrorist threat is no longer at the top of the list.  An RCMP ERT has nothing like the necessary specialized capabilities nor training.

Nevertheless...
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/arts/story.html?id=fc0e4be6-7eeb-4fb8-864a-4693c4da0bd6&k=12850

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Airborne Battle Group Trenton (or maybe just the JTF 2)
Post by: FormerHorseGuard on January 24, 2008, 23:02:49
I always thought the JTF group was  secret unit and avoided press releases and the press in general. i guess i was worng, after my  Local MP missed her chance to have them sent to Petawawa which is also in her riding,  I see that  the paper reports  that  they are moving to Trenton. guess the bad guys do not need spies, jsut read the front page of the Ottawa papers. In the story  they  said the neighbours had trouble with  late night excercises and noise were kind of disturbing but after they made a deal to be warned in advance of lound noises things got better.
One lady  wanted to know who would come take their place.  the sotry  said another military  unit or the RCMP would take over the complex for training.

I am glad to see the farm team has a new home to look forward and Iwill be equally  shocked if they  get everything in place for the price tag of 220 million. i figure double that  and you might have it all in place.

Title: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Hatchet Man on September 07, 2008, 15:31:02
http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1187772

Quote
Special forces unit moving to CFB Trenton
Project worth $500 million
Posted By ERNST KUGLIN, SUN MEDIA
Posted 1 day ago
 

The secretive special forces unit known as Joint Task Force 2 is moving to CFB Trenton.

Northumberland-Quinte West MP Rick Norlock's announcement Friday ends more than two year of speculation the unit would be moving to the country's largest air force base.

"It's been the worst kept secret,'' admitted Norlock at a hastily called press conference at Quinte West city hall.

A $300 million training centre will be constructed on property recently purchased by the federal government just north of the base.

Another $200 million is being spent on new infrastructure, including new hangars and related buildings to support new strategic airlift capabilities of the air force.

The move is expected to be completed over the next two to three years.

JFT 2 is currently based at Dwyer Hill near Ottawa. The unit is outgrowing its present location.

The announcement comes days before Prime Minister Stephen Harper is expected to call a federal election for Oct. 14.

During the 2006 federal election campaign, Harper promised an airborne unit would be located at the base.

"I've been pressing the defence minister to make the announcement,' said Norlock. "It was part of our campaign platform in 2006 and it's only appropriate we live up to that commitment now. We had to clear the air and get rid of the question marks surrounding the rumours.''

The federal government is in the process of acquiring another 220 acres of land, but Norlock said the 200- plus acres already purchased is enough to house the unit that specializes in counterterrorism operations.

Continued After Advertisement Below

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"It (the unit) needs room to expand,'' he said.

Norlock said locating the unit at CFB Trenton was the best choice, one that made financial sense.

"CFB Trenton is a natural location with its rapid airlift capabilities and its centralized location between Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa,'' he said.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay, who was not at the press conference, issued a statement.

"In line with the Canada First Defence Department, this $500 million investment will not only provide new infrastructure in support of new airlift capabilities, but also expand the base in preparation for the arrival of JTF 2,'' he stated.

In January the federal government released an expression of interest that was posted for a multi-functional training and administrative campus worth an estimated $220 million on the government procurement website known as MERX. It did not specify CFB Trenton, but stated eastern Ontario.

Norlock said tenders for construction contracts will likely be issued in the coming months.

Norlock said for security reasons he couldn't say how many additional personnel would be moving to CFB Trenton.

"The unit is growing. I can't discuss numbers,'' he said. "It's also important to realize the spin-off and support that is needed for a unit this size. It's safe to say though there will be hundreds of people moving into the area.''

Quinte West Mayor John Williams described the move as a "tremendous investment.''

"Even before this announcement the federal government was investing millions and millions of dollars at the base. This is great news for the city and great news for the entire Quinte region,'' said Williams.

"I don't think we've ever seen this type of federal investment in our area. We're very fortunate to have that investment and the resulting economic spinoffs."

Article ID# 1187772
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: punkd on September 07, 2008, 15:57:23
Quote
"It's been the worst kept secret,'' admitted Norlock at a hastily called press conference at Quinte West city hall.

Really? I haven't heard anything about this ;D
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Run away gun on September 07, 2008, 16:13:29
They should have expanded 427 Tac Hel Sqn capabilities and infrastructures in Petawawa, to build a runway able to land a C130 or comparable aircraft which could be used by both 2 Bde, and CANSOF for quick deployment.

Also, what are the training facilities like in Trenton, outside of whatever they build on the 200 acre plot of land?
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Strike on September 07, 2008, 18:28:35
They should have expanded 427 Tac Hel Sqn capabilities and infrastructures in Petawawa, to build a runway able to land a C130 or comparable aircraft which could be used by both 2 Bde, and CANSOF for quick deployment.

Also, what are the training facilities like in Trenton, outside of whatever they build on the 200 acre plot of land?

427 THS no longer exists.  It's been known as 427 SOAS for awhile now.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on September 07, 2008, 18:39:20
They should have expanded 427 Tac Hel Sqn capabilities and infrastructures in Petawawa, to build a runway able to land a C130 or comparable aircraft which could be used by both 2 Bde, and CANSOF for quick deployment.

Also, what are the training facilities like in Trenton, outside of whatever they build on the 200 acre plot of land?

I don't know, but Hercs have been landing in Petawawa for quite some time now.  If you go down to 427, you will also notice that there is the capability for them to land on the Matawa Plain, although it is only a grass field.  There are also emergency grass fields throughout the Training areas, as well as the Training areas in Wainwright, Gagetown, Suffield, Shilo, etc.

If you had done some further reading, you would have read that they are not moving there tomorrow, but in seven years time, WHEN facilities will have been built.

Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: NFLD Sapper on September 07, 2008, 18:43:16
I don't know, but Hercs have been landing in Petawawa for quite some time now.  If you go down to 427, you will also notice that there is the capability for them to land on the Matawa Plain, although it is only a grass field.  There are also emergency grass fields throughout the Training areas, as well as the Training areas in Wainwright, Gagetown, Suffield, Shilo, etc.

If you had done some further reading, you would have read that they are not moving there tomorrow, but in seven years time, WHEN facilities will have been built.



Most (if not all ) of the ones in Gagetown are listed as condition unknown.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on September 07, 2008, 18:44:06
Do they still fly out of the Pembroke airport?
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on September 07, 2008, 18:45:47
Do they still fly out of the Pembroke airport?

What's in a name?  It is in Petawawa, with a DND facility.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on September 07, 2008, 18:47:30
Most (if not all ) of the ones in Gagetown are listed as condition unknown.

Many are, but I am sure that several have been reconditioned.  There were once Range Control Regulations that forebade the driving on or across any of these fields.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: BulletMagnet on September 07, 2008, 18:47:51
Yes they do but generally only when a para unit is jumping...

I think perhaps moving JTF2 to Petewawa would have put too many CANSOF eggs in one basket...with 427 SOAS and CSOR here it's pretty crowded plus now there is JTF2 and another CANSOF unit in Trenton we have a 2/2 mix seems almost symmetric.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Strike on September 07, 2008, 18:50:15
The reason the airfields are in "conditions unknown" are because they are no regularly maintained and to discourage anyone landing there out of the blue.  Not just talking military aircraft for this.

As for the Pembrke airport, they have no military facilities.  For a CF aircraft to use it as a staging point they have to notify the base so that the base firehall is aware.  The airfield also likes getting a heads up as they might find themselves limited on fuel and have to plan appropriately or get a bowser out from the base.

As for the thought of moving the unit to Pet, the base (read: training area) is pretty crowded as it is.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on September 07, 2008, 18:51:11
What's in a name?  It is in Petawawa, with a DND facility.

No I actually mean Pembroke Airport:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembroke_Airport

thanks BulletMagnet we flew out of there years ago to go to Cape Dorset NWT
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: NFLD Sapper on September 07, 2008, 18:53:18
Many are, but I am sure that several have been reconditioned.  There were once Range Control Regulations that forebade the driving on or across any of these fields.

Not sure, on the latest edition of the Gagetown RTA Map it lists them as unknown. Wonder if that's why there are always a number of TLARS at Air Strip 1
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Strike on September 07, 2008, 18:56:07
There were once Range Control Regulations that forebade the driving on or across any of these fields.

If this wasn't so sad I'd be laughing right now.  Yes, there still is, but it doesn't stop the numpties from doing it.  And it usually seems to happen after a hard rain when the soil is soft.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on September 07, 2008, 19:08:52
No I actually mean Pembroke Airport:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembroke_Airport


 ;D

That's what I meant by "what's in a name".  The Pembroke Airport is located in Petawawa.

And yes there is a small DND facility in the NE Corner where Mil Flights for deployments and Jumpers can enplane.  It is too easy to miss, and the Sign may be overgrown, but it is there.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Run away gun on September 07, 2008, 19:27:48
I don't know, but Hercs have been landing in Petawawa for quite some time now.  If you go down to 427, you will also notice that there is the capability for them to land on the Matawa Plain, although it is only a grass field.  There are also emergency grass fields throughout the Training areas, as well as the Training areas in Wainwright, Gagetown, Suffield, Shilo, etc.

If you had done some further reading, you would have read that they are not moving there tomorrow, but in seven years time, WHEN facilities will have been built.



Well what I was eluding to is building an airstrip down at 427, a permenant tarmac, so that deploying units did not have to drive the 1+ hour to Ottawa airport. Seeing as how pers are always leaving from Petawawa for training exercises all over the country and deployments all over the world it would make sense.

And as for facilities I was not speaking of those they are building, I was asking what is there already. Does Trenton have any weapons ranges or maneouver areas to support CANSOF or is it all being built on this 200 acre plot of land?



Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: SF2 on September 07, 2008, 19:33:35
1)  There is a DND facility at Pembroke Airport, as someone already mentioned, the Embarkation/Disembarkation centre at the South end of the field.

2)  There is already an airstrip at 427.  Its published in the FLIPS and has been there for many years.

3)  There is already expansion in the 427 area for another unit.

4)  Looks like Sandbanks is going to be busier in the summer!!
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on September 07, 2008, 19:54:28
Run away gun

Most who are going to deploy over long distances, especially internationally, will embark from Ottawa or Trenton.  There are several reasons.  One of the major reasons is refueling of the Aircraft, and deicing in winter.  Then there is the matter of Canada Customs/CBSA, Baggage handling, Aircraft servicing, Flight plans, large hangars, and numerous other reasons, major and minor.

Just a point.  There is already a permanant concrete tarmac at 427.  They don't have a paved runway.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Loachman on September 07, 2008, 20:06:31
Well what I was eluding to is building an airstrip down at 427, a permenant tarmac, so that deploying units did not have to drive the 1+ hour to Ottawa airport. Seeing as how pers are always leaving from Petawawa for training exercises all over the country and deployments all over the world it would make sense.

Not when you factor in the costs of construction and maintenance of runway, taxiways, passenger terminal, and other facilities mentioned, and all for very limited use.

The grass strip on the Mattawa exists as an "austere" landing strip for training Herc crews. It can stand one, or perhaps two, touch-and-goes by aircraft with no loads and then needs a rest for a few weeks as the surface will break up. It is only useable when dry. I had to investigate an incident somewhere in 1990 or 1991 when I was G3 Aviation/Base Flight Safety Officer after six Hercs in a row did touch-and-goes one night. One or two of them were rather significantly loaded and caused sizeable ruts. The final one caught the ruts and almost went sideways off of the runway but managed to stagger back into the air and return to Trenton with some minor damage. Note that this was at night, and there is no fancy lighting on the Mattawa; I can only imagine how long it took for heartrates to return to normal.

The grass strips in Petawawa and Gagetown were built for L19s used for Air OP in the pre-Kiowa days.

Should it ever be decided that traffic would warrant a full-blown facility capable of handling C17s and/or Airbi, then enlarging Pembroke would be the more sensible option - except to the landowners on either end of the current runway - and "more sensible option" is only marginally so. Neither would be worth the cost.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: aesop081 on September 07, 2008, 20:08:46
Well what I was eluding to is building an airstrip down at 427, a permenant tarmac,

Theres more to it than just building a strip of concrete 8-10000 feet long.


Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: NFLD Sapper on September 07, 2008, 20:12:45
You mean this one?

(http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/images/historic_gallery/wallpaper/birddog.jpg)
Cessna L-19 Bird Dog
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Loachman on September 07, 2008, 20:15:25
Yup.

They look better in green, though.

Note the "ARMY" on the side.

When I'm MND in a few years, you'll be seeing that again.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on September 07, 2008, 20:18:03
Yup.

They look better in green, though.

Note the "ARMY" on the side.

When I'm MND in a few years, you'll be seeing that again.

L 19's ?         >:D
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: NFLD Sapper on September 07, 2008, 20:22:26
(http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/images/historic_gallery/wallpaper/birddog1.jpg)

Better?  ;D
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on September 07, 2008, 20:28:24
Better?  ;D

And you even got 427 lines.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: NFLD Sapper on September 07, 2008, 20:29:13
Complete with a Chinook too.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Loachman on September 07, 2008, 20:29:51
Yes, but, being seldom satisfied, it's post-1968 and no longer "ARMY".

And that's a Voyageur on the ramp.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: kincanucks on September 07, 2008, 22:13:13
but it doesn't stop the numpties from doing it

Well well, that is what our Air Force brethren call us is it? Those numpties happen to be out there training on a regular basis and are not going to let a POS never used and grown over airstrip get in their way.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: aesop081 on September 07, 2008, 22:18:42


Well well, that is what our Air Force brethren call us is it?

I apologize for my fellow Air Force member and her comments. We know that no one in the army would resort to calling anyone in the other services by such names.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: BulletMagnet on September 07, 2008, 22:19:46
There are others services?  ;D
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Good2Golf on September 07, 2008, 22:50:17
NFLD Sapper, you almost get full marks...but that pic is post-1968, as you can tell by the "Forces armees canadiennes" on the L-19's door...it's no longer an Army airplane.  It has to be between 68 and 76 when the Chinooks replaced the Voyageur.  Perhaps the build date of 3 Hgr (not yet built here) could further nail down the timeframe of the picture?

G2G
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Loachman on September 07, 2008, 23:11:50
NFLD Sapper, you almost get full marks...but that pic is post-1968, as you can tell by the "Forces armees canadiennes" on the L-19's door...it's no longer an Army airplane.  It has to be between 68 and 76 when the Chinooks replaced the Voyageur.  Perhaps the build date of 3 Hgr (not yet built here) could further nail down the timeframe of the picture?

Given that there's nothing on the ramp besides the Voyageur, and the L19 is flying, I'd say that the heliport is pretty much brand new and the Kiowas and Twin Hueys have not yet moved in. The clutter of smaller buildings, including some "temporary ones", that accumulated behind and to the left of the hangar (the old Log [then Adm] Sp Flt building, Met shack, Observers' hovel etcetera) is not there in the photo yet either.

The lack of 3 Hangar doesn't help, as it was built after the Twin Hueys left.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: NFLD Sapper on September 07, 2008, 23:16:21
I took the pics from the airforce page but they have no info on when or where it was taken  :-\
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Loachman on September 07, 2008, 23:46:28
I should have looked at the photo more closely - there is a Kiowa on the ramp.

My first visit to Petawawa was in 1973. I didn't see any L19s flying then.

I'd say 1972.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Strike on September 08, 2008, 09:03:06
but it doesn't stop the numpties from doing it

Well well, that is what our Air Force brethren call us is it? Those numpties happen to be out there training on a regular basis and are not going to let a POS never used and grown over airstrip get in their way.

Oh, that was you was it?   ;D
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Scone on September 08, 2008, 10:24:00
NFLD Sapper, you almost get full marks...but that pic is post-1968, as you can tell by the "Forces armees canadiennes" on the L-19's door...it's no longer an Army airplane.  It has to be between 68 and 76 when the Chinooks replaced the Voyageur.  Perhaps the build date of 3 Hgr (not yet built here) could further nail down the timeframe of the picture?

G2G

Would this be the same plane?

CF-TGC
   
Cessna
   
L-19
   
Birddog

Model 305A
   
23475
   
first date: 11 April 1973 - Transferred  to Air Cadet League, registered as CF-TGC

Built in 1953.  Ex Canadian Army 16705, ex CF 119705 (which see).   First registered as CF-TGC on 5 September 1974, became C-FTGC by 1976.  Based in St. Hubert, PQ, when latest Certificate of Registration was issued on 15 April 2003.

http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/rcac_powered.html

muffin
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 08, 2008, 10:29:18
Would this be the same plane?

CF-TGC
   
Cessna
   
L-19
   
Birddog

Model 305A
   
23475
   
first date: 11 April 1973 - Transferred  to Air Cadet League, registered as CF-TGC

Built in 1953.  Ex Canadian Army 16705, ex CF 119705 (which see).   First registered as CF-TGC on 5 September 1974, became C-FTGC by 1976.  Based in St. Hubert, PQ, when latest Certificate of Registration was issued on 15 April 2003.

http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/rcac_powered.html

muffin

Are you suggesting that there will be a JTF 2 cadet corps

.

.

.

.

.

... in the Air Cadets?

I'm sorry, Mods, I couldn't resist  :-*
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Haggis on September 08, 2008, 10:45:02
Are you suggesting that there will be a JTF 2 cadet corps

... in the Air Cadets?

I'm sorry, Mods, I couldn't resist  :-*

And so begins another "JTF-2 thread death spiral".
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 08, 2008, 11:12:40
And so begins another "JTF-2 thread death spiral".

Yeah, funny how that always happens.

In my own defence: muffin said it (the dreaded "C" word) (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,79629.msg755042.html#msg755042) first.  >:D
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Scone on September 08, 2008, 12:08:38
I just wanted to know if the info on the plane (listed as now with the cadets) meant that this is the same plane that is in the 2nd photo - to help with the date... nevermind though I guess.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Loachman on September 08, 2008, 14:26:27
I just wanted to know if the info on the plane (listed as now with the cadets) meant that this is the same plane that is in the 2nd photo

Yes.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: ArmyRick on September 08, 2008, 15:04:05
Getting back on topic. Someone said earlier is 200 additional acres enough to train and support JTF2. First off, I "suspect" it will be more of a housing facility (for the unit not the troops) and there will probably have some of their high tech/minimal space required ranges.

I am guessing here but I see my crystal ball telling me that that the Dwyer Hill ninjas will continue to train across the country and in foreign countries.

Just guessing thats all, no OPSEC violated here as I have nothing to do with the unit.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: BulletMagnet on September 08, 2008, 16:13:28
Petawawa would still be feasible for any maneuver training that Unit may want to do.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: aesop081 on September 08, 2008, 16:20:57

I am guessing here but I see my crystal ball telling me that that the Dwyer Hill ninjas will continue to train across the country and in foreign countries.


Kinda like what the rest of the CF does ?
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: ArmyRick on September 08, 2008, 16:24:40
JTF2 is not a "maneuver" unit like an infantry battalion or an armoured regiment. I think your mistaking maneuver and tactical movement as one and the same. They are a spec ops unit.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: BulletMagnet on September 08, 2008, 16:27:03
Geee thanks tips.....


How about I change Maneuver to Mobility...... ::)
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Rider Pride on September 08, 2008, 19:28:07
"maneuver tng" would that be like a mounted advance to contact?

Sounds right.

Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: CallOfDuty on September 08, 2008, 21:47:24
  I can only imagine that most of the boys  must be pretty dissapointed with having to move to Trenton, from Ottawa??
I've never been to Ottawa, but heard its a great city.  I've been to Trenton.  'shudders' :-\
 
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: George Wallace on September 08, 2008, 21:55:56
  I can only imagine that most of the boys  must be pretty dissapointed with having to move to Trenton, from Ottawa??
I've never been to Ottawa, but heard its a great city.  I've been to Trenton.  'shudders' :-\
 

Too be honest.  Belleville and Kingston are just down the road.  Centrally located between Toronto and Montreal, and Ottawa and Ft Drum/Watertown.  Easy access to Rail, Air and Road links. 

With new additions to the Base, comes development in the Town. 

No more Government Secretaries.  More Country Girls.  Means a change in lifestyle, if any one had a life.   ;D 
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: reveng on September 08, 2008, 21:59:57
Let's just get it over with and move JTF2 to Cannington, Ontario.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: Good2Golf on September 10, 2008, 16:37:22

...With new additions to the Base, comes development in the Town. 


How will that go over with the local business development interests?  Someone once told me that there was a kind of unspoken control by a number of parties over letting too much development occur in Trenton, not quite Amish, but certainly not breaking down doors to grow too quickly.
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: karl28 on September 10, 2008, 16:48:16
           I have lived in Trenton most of my life 23 years and counting  .  I have heard of Rumours about the Down Town better business burrow blocking development that lead from people doing business in the down town corps .  I have no idea if this was ever true but you heard about it from time to time from other locals who have been in the area there whole lives  .         I think when Walmart moved in that changed everything sense than  companies like  Tele Tech and Durham contact center have moved in  other stores have expanded and from what I here from my Coworkers apparently when Cosco is coming I don't know when but that's what people are saying any how .   
Title: Re: Its Official JTF 2 is moving to Trenton
Post by: gun runner on September 10, 2008, 21:14:28
Its the same way up here in NWO. Small town attitudes towards a more prosperous possible influx of money that would not have been there if not for the government, in what ever form it will take on(ie.. forces troops, and alot of 'em). The downtown BBB is concerned that the new business' will rob the core businesses of revenue and force them to play ball that they have no idea of. It takes them out of their comfort zone. These soldiers will be the best thing this town has seen in a long time.Ubique
Title: JTF2 land deal close: McKay
Post by: GAP on June 09, 2010, 18:42:43
 JTF2 land deal close: McKay
Posted By Ernst Kuglin, QMI Agency Posted 2 hours ago
Article Link (http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2615709&auth=Ernst%20Kuglin,%20QMI%20Agency)
 
The federal government may be close to wrapping up a land deal to make way for a secretive commando unit at CFB Trenton.

"We have advanced the file to near completion,'' Defence Minister Peter MacKay has told QMI Agency.

But members of a local farm family say they have heard nothing from the government in recent months on attempts to purchase their land.

The Meyers family has lived on the Meyers Creek Road farm for more than 200 years. — it was given to Belleville pioneer John Meyers for dedication to the Crown, say his decendants. The government wants to purchase the 230-acre property.

National Defence requires about 990 acres north and west of the base to construct a new training facility for the special operations commando unit known as Joint Task Force 2. Construction of the facility has been estimated at about $300 million.

Negotiations with property owners have been ongoing since 2006.

Frank Meyers, who has refused to sell the family farm, may now face expropriation.

But MacKay said expropriation is a last resort.

"We are negotiating in good faith and with as much transparency as possible,'' said MacKay, who was at CFB Trenton last Friday for the arrival of the first of 17 new Hercules C-130J aircraft.

MacKay said there is a strategic advantage to having the commando unit stationed at CFB Trenton.

The sprawling Air Force base supplies the backbone of the defence department's strategic and tactical airlift capability.
Title: Re: JTF2 land deal close: McKay
Post by: Jarnhamar on June 10, 2010, 10:35:37
Quote
Expropriation is politically motivated and forceful confiscation and redistribution of private property outside the common law.

Unlike eminent domain or laws regulating the foreign investment, expropriation takes place outside the common law and is the socially-motivated confiscations of any property rather than confiscations of real estate. The term appears as "expropriation of expropriators (ruling classes)" in marxist theory, or as slogan "Loot the looters!", very popular during Russian October Revolution [1]

The term is often used to describe nationalization campaigns by communist states, such as dekulakization and collectivization in the USSR [2], and as some form of justification for robberies by revolutionaries, such as by Joseph Stalin and Kamo in the Russian Empire [3].

According to the traditional interpretation of Marxism all large-scale industries and private properties should be expropriated and held by the state. Leon Trotsky was adamant that private owners should not be compensated.[4] Trotsky wrote that "The program of the equal distribution of the land thus presupposes the expropriation of all land, not only privately-owned land in general, or privately-owned peasant land, but even communal land.[5]"

That's sure to make the new neighbours welcome.
Title: Re: JTF2 land deal close: McKay
Post by: Task on June 10, 2010, 10:40:38
Did anyone else have difficulty with the link?
Is the link dead? Or is it my computer?
Title: Re: JTF2 land deal close: McKay
Post by: Bread Guy on June 10, 2010, 10:47:20
The link was working earlier, but may not be now because of some info in the piece - just peanut gallery speculation on my part.

- edited to add this:

I may be wrong - here's the piece in another QMI paper (http://www.trentonian.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2617226).
Title: Re: JTF2 land deal close: McKay
Post by: Technoviking on June 10, 2010, 12:15:49
Talk to the folks in Jerusalem, NB, about their homesteads.  Or Dunn's Corner, NB.  Or Petersville, NB.  The government has done it before.
Title: Re: JTF2 land deal close: McKay
Post by: Matt_Fisher on June 10, 2010, 13:34:49
Out of curiosity, why didn't CANSOFCOM push to have a dual-use training facility built which both JTF-2 and CSOR could use in Petawawa, while maintaining DHTC as the administrative/command HQ for JTF-2?
Title: Re: JTF2 land deal close: McKay
Post by: GAP on June 10, 2010, 14:08:43
Empires should not be too close to each other....
Title: Secretive special forces unit coming to CFB Trenton
Post by: Bubbles on February 19, 2011, 01:18:38
http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2985798

"One more land deal stands in the way of relocating the Canadian Forces' special forces unit Joint Task Force 2 (JTF2) to CFB Trenton, QMI Agency has learned.

National Defence Peter MacKay said Friday that negotiations with Quinte West farm-land owner Frank Meyers, who had refused to sell his land last June, is still ongoing. It's the last stumbling block to moving the highly secretive special operations unit from its headquarters in Dwyer Hill, near Ottawa."

Title: Re: Defence Department eyes land north of CFB Trenton
Post by: Bread Guy on February 01, 2012, 20:59:22
From November 2007....
Kingston Whig Standard (http://www.kingstonwhigstandard.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=793937&auth=Luke+Hendry)

Posted By Luke Hendry

Canada's Department of National Defence still wants to buy land north of CFB Trenton, but Osprey News has learned officials will settle for much less than the ideal amount.

In written answers to Osprey News questions, DND spokesman Dave Martin said the DND still wants to buy about 401 hectares (990 acres) of land between the base, RCAF Road, Meyers Creek Road and Whites Road.

But, for the first time, he added the government can work with less land if landowners won't sell the full amount.

"The minimum requirement is for 220 hectares," Martin said ....
Bumped with the latest....
Quote
The federal government plans to kick two landowners off their property to make way for the construction of a massive new base for Canada’s special forces.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay confirmed the move Wednesday, saying that the extraordinary steps are necessary so that the country’s elite commandos can set up a new training facility in a remote area next to the military’s main air base, CFB Trenton.

“Expeditionary forces and forces that are deploying overseas being close to an airbase is something that helps facilitate that,” he said in Ottawa. “Similarly, the current training areas are in an urban area and so again for operational training, for the type of specialized training necessary, this new facility we believe will optimize our abilities.”

The long-planned move will consolidate the Canadian Special Operations Forces Command, a team that includes the elite Joint Task Force 2 counterterrorism force and the Canadian Special Operation Regiment. Currently, JTF2 is based at the Dwyer Hill Training Facility northwest of Ottawa while CSOR operates out of CFB Petawawa.

The plans have been stalled by two holdouts with landowners near Trenton who have refused to sell their farmland to the federal government. The first is Frank Myers, whose family has owned the 93-hectare farm for 200 years. The other is Jim Pang, of Belleville, whom local news reports say purchased his 22-hectare property as an investment in 1976.

Neither could be reached Wednesday for comment. Both have been in negotiations for years with the government, but refused to sell off their properties ....
Toronto Star, 1 Feb 12 (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1124927--reluctant-landowners-fall-victim-to-canadian-commandos)
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Hatchet Man on February 02, 2012, 00:30:08
Interesting.  1) Can't wait for those on the left to start crucifying Harper/McKay for booting people off land they have owned for centuries in one case apparently (click on the link and look and the title of the article  "Reluctant landowners fall victim to Canadian commandos" thats not biased at all ::) ), perhaps if their saviour PET had enshrined property rights in the Charter..... :warstory: (I am in indifferent, just pointing out the obvious crap storm that this will cause).  2) Didn't CSOR just open up a brand new building in Pet?
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Technoviking on February 02, 2012, 08:16:46
Two families?  That's nothing.  Check out the history of the expropriation of the land when they established CFB Gagetown.

From Wikipedia article on CFB Gagetown:

Quote
Over 900 families inhabited the area primarily engaged in agriculture and forestry industries. The terrain was variable, providing mixed Acadian forest, swamp and marshland, as well as open farming areas similar to the North European Plain. The influence of the St. Croix Highlands, part of the Appalachian Mountain range, creates hilly terrain and valleys in the southern and western part of the region close to the Nerepis and Oromocto Rivers.


From another site (http://www.unb.ca/nbmhp/counties/Sunbury.html):

Quote
The land expropriated in 1953 resulted in the removal of 750 families with a total of 3,000 residents, and the destruction of 20 communities.


For interest, the PM at the time was Louis St Laurent (Lib-MP for Québec East).
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: George Wallace on February 02, 2012, 10:45:37
We can look at almost every Army and Air Base in Canada and see that the same thing occurred.  The expropriation of land in 1905 West of Pembroke created what is now CFB Petawawa ..........
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Good2Golf on February 02, 2012, 11:03:06
Interesting.  1) Can't wait for those on the left to start crucifying Harper/McKay for booting people off land they have owned for centuries in one case apparently (click on the link and look and the title of the article  "Reluctant landowners fall victim to Canadian commandos" thats not biased at all ::) ), perhaps if their saviour PET had enshrined property rights in the Charter..... :warstory: (I am in indifferent, just pointing out the obvious crap storm that this will cause).  2) Didn't CSOR just open up a brand new building in Pet?

Speaking of P.E.T., remember, there were all those people in Mirabel who had their land expropriated to build the airport, in many cases, families owing the land for centuries*?


* - and in some other cases, people who owned the land for a few weeks or months, but who, it appeared, were okay with being paid much more than they spent weeks earlier.   ;)
Title: Some still fighting
Post by: Bread Guy on March 08, 2012, 22:05:31
Quote
A Quinte West family has filed an objection with the federal government in a last-ditch effort to save its ancestral farm from expropriation.

“We’re are going to fight this the best we can,” John Meyers told QMI Agency Tuesday.

His father, Frank Meyers, has vowed to fight the expropriation of 220 acres of farm land located on the south side of Meyers Creek Road.

The feds finally moved in February to begin the expropriation process on the few remaining properties needed to build a massive training facility at the north end of Canadian Forces Base Trenton ....
Kingston Whig-Standard, 7 Mar 12 (http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3494477)
Title: Last man standing - isn't anymore
Post by: Bread Guy on June 22, 2012, 23:20:46
Quote
The verdict was never really in doubt; if the government wants to buy your land, selling is the only real option. But for Frank Meyers and his family, the official confirmation was no less devastating: their beloved farm, more than two centuries old, will indeed be transformed into a top-secret training ground for JTF 2, the Canadian military’s elite special forces squad. “I am of the opinion that the properties proposed for expropriation are absolutely essential for the safety and security of Canada,” reads the final decision from Ottawa, signed by Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose. “For that reason and in absence of valid justification to do otherwise, I have confirmed my intention to expropriate.” The paperwork, obtained by Maclean’s, marks the end of a long, public battle that pitted a piece of Canadian history against modern-day national security ....
Maclean's, 18 Jun 12 (http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/06/18/at-war-with-the-feds/)
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: LieutenantPrivate on June 23, 2012, 00:29:06
im sure those guys are just thrilled about this move......
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Fishbone Jones on June 23, 2012, 01:45:26
im sure those guys are just thrilled about this move......

Why, or why not?

If you have some inside info to share, please do.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: ArmyVern on June 23, 2012, 10:13:42
Why, or why not?

If you have some inside info to share, please do.

2.5 hours to Ottawa or 1.5 hours to TO as opposed to their current digs pretty choice (but close drive to society location). Trenton sucks. Only 2 that I can think of.  ;D
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: LieutenantPrivate on June 23, 2012, 10:45:40
2.5 hours to Ottawa or 1.5 hours to TO as opposed to their current digs pretty choice (but close drive to society location). Trenton sucks. Only 2 that I can think of.  ;D

No, no inside info, was thinking along the same lines.  Ottawa VS Trenton with families and what not....must suck.....no offense if your from Trenton
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: ArmyVern on June 23, 2012, 10:47:12
No, no inside info, was thinking along the same lines.  Ottawa VS Trenton with families and what not....must suck.....no offense if your from Trenton

I spent 6 years there; I'm never going back! Those are the things that I hated about it; I can't be the only one.  :)
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Fishbone Jones on June 23, 2012, 11:10:31
So unit locations, bases and infrastructure should be based on how much of a social butterfly you wish to be? >:D

I was also posted to Trenton, albeit a long time ago, and found it very nice for hunting, fishing and other outdoor activities.

I guess, by your criteria, it would all depend on what your off time interests included as to whether a base is good or bad, and suited or not, to post a unit there.

Outdoors activities or shopping malls. ;D

 :stirpot:
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: ArmyVern on June 23, 2012, 11:18:54
So unit locations, bases and infrastructure should be based on how much of a social butterfly you wish to be? >:D

I was also posted to Trenton, albeit a long time ago, and found it very nice for hunting, fishing and other outdoor activities.

I guess, by your criteria, it would all depend on what your off time interests included as to whether a base is good or bad, and suited or not, to post a unit there.

Outdoors activities or shopping malls. ;D

 :stirpot:

Very few bases meet my criteria.  ;D  I still go because the CF says I have to. Doesn't mean I have to appreciate it's location (I think that's where the poster was going with his comment)!! I have to find excuses to go to big cities for parties/gatherings etc ... just to get in some half decent shopping!!  ;D
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Baden Guy on June 23, 2012, 11:26:58
Gee after postings to Chatham, Bagotville and Cold Lake Trenton looks excellent.
Never could talk my career manager to post a fast jet tech to transports.  :'( :)

Edit: I now live on the edge of the GTA, and I ain't leavin'.

Edit #2: Nice photo Vern :nod:
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: ArmyVern on June 23, 2012, 11:32:33
Gee after postings to Chatham, Bagotville and Cold Lake Trenton looks excellent.
Never could talk my career manager to post a fast jet tech to transports.  :'( :)

Edit: I now live on the edge of the GTA, and I ain't leavin'.

Edit #2: Nice photo Vern :nod:

Thanks! I'd go to Chatam (would have went) in a heartbeat (I'm a Miramichi girl!). A 45 minute trip to Moncton for shopping is within my "acceptable" range.  >:D
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: signalsguy on June 23, 2012, 11:44:32
I was in Trenton for a few years, it was a great place to work but the town is horribad, no way I would live there... Luckily there are a lot of great places within the geographic boundaries.

A lot of those soldiers have been in one place for a long time, wives are established with careers of their own, kids have spent their whole lives without moves and the families are integrated into the community. I predict a bunch of retirements and a bunch of IR requests.

Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: aesop081 on June 23, 2012, 11:51:44
I predict a bunch of retirements and a bunch of IR requests.

As was the case when 2PPCLI moved from Winnipeg. The world did not end and the CF carried on. This will be no different.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: signalsguy on June 23, 2012, 12:06:10
The last I heard, they were timing the move to coincide with the predicted retirement bubble that is going to hit them whether they move or not... a lot of the 'plank-holders' are getting up there...
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: PuckChaser on June 23, 2012, 12:44:01
There was quite a few sigs retirements this year from that unit, if there's a bubble that's a lot of turnover...
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: George Wallace on June 23, 2012, 12:57:24
As was the case when 2PPCLI moved from Winnipeg. The world did not end and the CF carried on. This will be no different.

And we had the whole of 1 Bde move to Edmonton from Calgary........and 1 RCR from London to Petawawa.......and life goes on.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: NFLD Sapper on June 23, 2012, 15:02:59
And 1 FD SQN from Chilliwack to Edmonton....
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: LieutenantPrivate on June 23, 2012, 15:14:34
Fair enough, life goes on.  I just think units like that have a more difficult time filling their ranks if a lot of guys decide to "retire" before the move. Im sure they considered that as a factor though...
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Scott on June 23, 2012, 15:16:47
Have you bothered to loo at the recruiting boards here? There will be no trouble filling the spots of those who do not want to stay in because of a move.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: medicineman on June 23, 2012, 15:18:37
Fair enough, life goes on.  I just think units like that have a more difficult time filling their ranks if a lot of guys decide to "retire" before the move. Im sure they considered that as a factor though...

Most of those people are there because they want to be there, regardless of where they end up dropping the unit.   :2c:

MM
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: aesop081 on June 23, 2012, 15:38:19
And 1 FD SQN from Chilliwack to Edmonton....

I'm sorry....who ?
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: LieutenantPrivate on June 23, 2012, 16:10:26
Most of those people are there because they want to be there, regardless of where they end up dropping the unit.   :2c:

MM

very valid point
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: NFLD Sapper on June 23, 2012, 16:25:08
I'm sorry....who ?

Sorry meant to write 1 CER.......

 ;D
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: ArmyRick on October 02, 2012, 13:48:46
Another point to go hand in hand with the type of person who becomes an assaulter. Does it matter where you live (Trenton or Ottawa) when your hardly ever home anyways?
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: MrBlue on October 02, 2012, 16:43:15
Happy Wife, Happy Life

I think its safe to say most children/wives/families, would prefer to be in an actual city with multiple/better opportunities for education, social life, career, etc... Considering that the US research states their avg SOF operators are married with avg 2 kids, i'm going to assume our stats aren't to far off.  So yes I would definitely say it matters to a degree.

I can honestly say my wife would put up with frequent deployments and training a lot better in a real city with shopping, movies, social life, good job then she would in a place like Pet or Trenton.  Not to mention from a reliable source Trenton is riddled with BAD social housing and people with many social problems, so that doesn't really make it appealing either.  Furthermore prospect of being in Trenton VS Pet or Ottawa for any french troops suck, at least in Pet and Ottawa you have a french community (far bigger in Ottawa) and therefore can send your kids to good french schools, I haven't heard anything good in that department about Trenton.

Not to say I wouldn't go if I was in the unit, or CF told me.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: ArmyRick on October 02, 2012, 17:43:12
OK, I get alot of what you are saying but follow me on this one. The type of person who becomes a Special operations Assaulter is not really going to be overly picky about where they end up. There are much easier ways to get posted to Ottawa for the sake of living in Ottawa.

If you are dedicated and want something bad enough, you will take the good with the bad. I realize for franco members that this is going to be tough. How did anglo instructors get along with their families when posted to St Jean or CMR St Jean (NCM PD)? They simply make the best of it, its all one can really do. 
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: signalsguy on October 03, 2012, 00:07:12
Trenton is bad, but Belleville, Cobourg/Port Hope, Napanee and Kingston are all within easy reach. And they are all nice places to live... I wouldn't assume that most of these people are going to choose to live in Trenton...
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Dimsum on October 03, 2012, 00:10:46
Trenton is bad, but Belleville, Cobourg/Port Hope, Napanee and Kingston are all within easy reach. And they are all nice places to live... I wouldn't assume that most of these people are going to choose to live in Trenton...

Is Kingston within the 45km or whatever distance the "geographical boundaries" are set at for CFB Trenton?  Because if so, Kingston would be an amazing place to be.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: HappyWithYourHacky on October 03, 2012, 00:15:38
Is Kingston within the 45km or whatever distance the "geographical boundaries" are set at for CFB Trenton?  Because if so, Kingston would be an amazing place to be.

Kingston is about 75 k from Belleville once you get on the 401. Nice city but a little far.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: signalsguy on October 03, 2012, 08:54:32
Too far to live but close enough to go to for a meal or a quick visit. Eastern boundary is Napanee, about 40 minutes door to door. Napanee is 20 minutes from Kingston.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Baden Guy on October 04, 2012, 13:37:25
Too far to live but close enough to go to for a meal or a quick visit. Eastern boundary is Napanee, about 40 minutes door to door. Napanee is 20 minutes from Kingston.

So own home in Napanee , posted to Trenton, posted to Kingston and posted back to Trenton.

I've seen that one a few times.Unfortunately not me.  :(
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: JayB on January 03, 2013, 12:36:57
Too far to live but close enough to go to for a meal or a quick visit. Eastern boundary is Napanee, about 40 minutes door to door. Napanee is 20 minutes from Kingston.

Aren't men of this position required to live on base? I remember reading in Denis Morriset's book that JTF2 bought them their house because they want all the assaulters' families to be tight knit? Maybe I'm mistaken
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: MJP on January 03, 2013, 12:42:06
Aren't men of this position required to live on base? I remember reading in Denis Morriset's book that JTF2 bought them their house because they want all the assaulters' families to be tight knit? Maybe I'm mistaken

You are.  They are no different than any other member and can choose to live where they want (within reasonable limits imposed on all CF members).
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Journeyman on January 03, 2013, 12:43:32
I remember reading in Denis Morriset's book that JTF2 bought them their house .....
Gee, one more thing in that book that's complete BS.   ::)
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: technophile on March 26, 2013, 10:57:08
JTF-2 facility “a go,” says MP -  By Ernst Kuglin, Trentonian

Friday, March 22, 2013 12:00:28 EDT PM


QUINTE WEST - Local MP Rick Norlock says there are no plans to rethink moving a secretive commando unit to CFB Trenton despite expected cuts in defence spending.

The feds wrapped up the expropriation process on the remaining properties needed to construct a 400-hectare training facility for Joint Task Force 2 in August, 2012.

Norlock, who sits on the government's parliamentary defence committee, was unable to provide a timeline as to when construction of the massive training facility is expected to begin.

“All indications I have is that the project is a go, but I don't have a definitive date,” said Norlock.

Norlock said the extent of defence department budget cuts won't be known until the budget implementation bill is tabled in the House of Commons.

A national defence spokesperson told QMI Agency in February a design contract for a JTF-2 training campus north of CFB Trenton would be issued “soon.”

But now it appears the government could move the project back.

“I don't know when an RFP for design work will be issued,” said Norlock.

Locally, there had been speculation the project was set to begin in 2014.


more at link


http://www.trentonian.ca/2013/03/22/jtf-2-facility-a-go-says-mp
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Bread Guy on October 01, 2013, 07:52:39
Bumped with the latest (http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/09/27/the-last-man-standing/) on what appears to be the last guy standing ....
Quote
Like his legendary forefather, Frank Meyers is not afraid of a good fight. Or a long one. For seven years now, he has been battling the federal government, refusing, at every turn, to part with his beloved family land: 90 hectares of prime soil in Quinte West, Ont., directly north of Canadian Forces Base Trenton. “I’ve lived on this farm for 85 years, worked it all my life, and I don’t know why the government wants to throw us out,” Meyers says, standing near his latest crop of corn. “It’s my heritage. Leave me alone.”

Meyers honestly believed that if he kept refusing to sell, Ottawa would do just that: leave him alone. But the master plan was never in doubt. The Meyers land, and 11 other pieces of property, will soon be transformed into a state-of-the-art, 400-hectare headquarters for Joint Task Force 2, the Canadian military’s elite anti-terrorism squad. And after so many years, so many sleepless nights, it appears Frank Meyers has no choice but to finally surrender. A recent letter from the federal justice department says he must be off the property by Sept. 30 because “demolition crews will be attending the site” on Oct. 1.

“It’s an awful stress on me,” he says, dressed in jeans and a blue shirt. “They’re waiting for me to drop dead. That’s what they want.”

( .... )

Rick Norlock, the local Conservative MP, says he sympathizes with the family. He understands their connection to the land, and why they didn’t want to sell—at any price. But the base expansion, he says, will inject millions of dollars and thousands of jobs into an economically depressed region that desperately needs it. “Nobody is happy in scenarios like this,” Norlock says, sitting in his Cobourg office, a 40-minute drive from the Meyers farm. “Everybody would like the world to remain the way it is for them and for their families forever, but the reality is there is an Air Force base there. There was a decision to expand it. It is good for the area. It is not good for a couple of people.”

( .... )

In fact, Norlock says the government would have expropriated the Meyers land much sooner, had it not been for Stephen Harper. “I was anxious for this to go ahead, and the Prime Minister convinced me that we need to be more conciliatory; we need to try and do this the right way,” he says.

But any patience the Prime Minister had has long expired and, as the final deadline approaches, Frank Meyers doesn’t want to talk about what might happen when the sun rises on Oct. 1. “I have no idea,” he says. “What I do, I’ll never tell, until the day comes.”
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Lightguns on October 01, 2013, 08:56:16
We could build a JTF2 complex at Gagetown for half the price and political hassle.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: PuckChaser on October 01, 2013, 09:13:10
We could build a JTF2 complex at Gagetown for half the price and political hassle.

And have it a 12 hour drive away from all of the CF's air lift capability, Canada's largest cities, and the nation's capital? Yeah, Gagetown is a great idea. ::)
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Old Sweat on October 01, 2013, 09:14:08
We could build a JTF2 complex at Gagetown for half the price and political hassle.

For what possible purpose?

Trenton is the major airhead and is also within a very few hours drive of Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal. Gagetown does not share those characteristics, nor does any other CAF installation, although Kingston and Petawawa come close. Petawawa is also the home of the special operations helicopter squadron; moving JTF2 out of Eastern Ontario would have implications for the squadron's operations and training.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Technoviking on October 01, 2013, 10:13:02
One has to remember the role of JTF-2.  According to Wikipedia, it's a counter-terrorism force.  There may be many shenanigans in the Maritimes, but being located in Ontario has its advantages
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Technoviking on October 01, 2013, 10:16:25
Warranting another reply, vice editing the previous one:

Gagetown was built where it is because of the threat of the day.  In the 1950s, Canada was expecting to go back to Europe, once again, this time, to fight the USSR.  As such, it needed space large enough to train a division and close enough to an all weather deep water port to sail that division to Europe.  Gagetown fit that bill.  It's not ideal for a counter terrorist role. 
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Towards_the_gap on October 01, 2013, 10:25:08
We could build a JTF2 complex at Gagetown for half the price and political hassle.


Good idea. Boreal forest and swamp are Al-Qaeda's next priority target.

Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Journeyman on October 01, 2013, 10:29:29
We could build a JTF2 complex at Gagetown for half the price and political hassle.
We don't normally get posts of that insight.....outside of the Recruiting threads.      :not-again:
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Lightguns on October 01, 2013, 10:52:10
Oooops, hit the post button before inserting the  :sarcasm: do-dad.  You guys should lighten up a bit, even if I had meant it in other than sarcasm, the first response was sufficient to drive the point home.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Towards_the_gap on October 01, 2013, 11:07:08
That whirring sound we're all hearing is lightguns backpedalling rapidly!!! ;D
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Journeyman on October 01, 2013, 11:16:44
That whirring sound we're all hearing is lightguns backpedalling rapidly!!! ;D

It's not a unique occurrence....
The iPhone is not my specialty and I live beyond the Internet.
   :pop:
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Bread Guy on October 15, 2013, 19:03:55
More (http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/10/13/canadians-join-85-year-old-frank-meyers-in-battle-to-save-farm/) on "the last man standing" ....
Quote
Fighting to keep his family farm, Frank Meyers has enjoyed precious little public support. The federal government has pushed him out. His Member of Parliament wants him gone. Even the local city council (Quinte West, Ont.) passed a unanimous motion endorsing Ottawa’s controversial plan: expropriating his historic land near CFB Trenton to construct a new headquarters for Joint Task Force 2, the Canadian military’s elite Special Forces squad. Minus his family and his faith in the Lord, Frank Meyers has been waging a very lonely battle.

Not anymore.

Seven years after the feds first offered to buy his farm—and 18 months after they took it, his objections be damned—Meyers’s story has suddenly hit a raw nerve with fellow Canadians. Strangers are phoning the house and writing letters. An online petition is collecting signatures (1,095, at last check). And a Facebook campaign (“Save Frank & Marjorie Meyers Farm”) has amassed 3,000 supporters in a little more than a week. “I don’t have no Internet,” says Meyers, now 85 years old. “But I can’t stop people from fighting for me, and I appreciate it. They’ll never know how much I appreciate what they’re doing. I could never repay them.”

Unfortunately for Meyers, all the attention is probably too little, too late. His property already belongs to the federal government, the takeover rubber stamped after an emotional public hearing last year. Only last week—amid news that his lease agreement had expired, and this season’s harvest will be his last—did the story explode on social media ....
Petition here (https://www.causes.com/campaigns/37115-stop-the-harper-government-and-the-dnd-from-taking-the-meyers-farm/supporters), Facebook page here (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-Frank-Marjorie-Meyers-Farm/1419959788219689?ref=br_tf).
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Hatchet Man on October 16, 2013, 01:58:07
More (http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/10/13/canadians-join-85-year-old-frank-meyers-in-battle-to-save-farm/) on "the last man standing" ....Petition here (https://www.causes.com/campaigns/37115-stop-the-harper-government-and-the-dnd-from-taking-the-meyers-farm/supporters), Facebook page here (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-Frank-Marjorie-Meyers-Farm/1419959788219689?ref=br_tf).

Meh....the fact that people are only now starting to read/hear about this and shed their crocodile social network tears, please.  I tried reading some comments to amuse myself, the ignorance was staggering but not surprising.  Apparently Harper is just one cold hearted *******, and that previous governments have never expropriated land before.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: George Wallace on October 16, 2013, 02:18:55
Both Gagetown and Petawawa are on expropriated land. 
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Baloo on October 16, 2013, 02:34:15
You should have seen the gong-show over the 407 ETR extension.

This is not the first expropriation, this shall not be the last.

Ultimately, someone loses. These things are so much bigger than one person and their land. They will be fairly compensated.

Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: George Wallace on October 16, 2013, 02:37:28
Funny how they don't say anything when a Developer puts in a Sub-Division
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Good2Golf on October 16, 2013, 02:44:32
Heck, even Trudeau expropriated land, to wit: Mirabel International Airport.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Bread Guy on January 17, 2014, 21:55:14
The latest via CTV.ca (http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/i-m-still-standing-up-to-it-farmer-frank-meyers-says-of-dnd-expropriation-fight-1.1640006):  last man standing still trying ....
Quote
The fight between an Ontario farmer and the Department of National Defence is likely to end in the government's favour unless protesters are able to inflict political pressure, according to a real estate lawyer.

Approximately 200 acres of Frank Meyers' farm in Trenton, Ont. face demolition this week, to make way for the Canada Special Forces Command's new headquarters and training camp the DND plans to build there.

Now in his mid-80s, Meyers has been fighting the move for more than seven years.

 Meyers, whose family has worked the farm since 1787, was to be compensated for the land transfer under the terms of a confidential deal reached last November, but the farmer says he "never got anything."

"I didn't understand a thing. I was never given a copy of anything," Meyers told CTV's Canada AM on Wednesday morning. He said he's asked government representatives to meet with him since the hearing, but "nobody comes to see us. We've asked them. We've called them."

In the letters he was distributing to visitors at his farm Tuesday, Meyers declared three points of contention with the deal.

Besides providing "no benefit" and being "a causal source of harm," Meyers wrote that it "lacks the capacity to compel performance" and "lacks the power to force i (sic) or my person to be bound to perform under any and all of its terms and conditions."

The government took possession of his land in August 2012, but his family never left. Now, with the prospect of bulldozers, more than 91,000 people have signed an online petition (https://www.causes.com/campaigns/37115-stop-the-harper-government-and-the-dnd-from-taking-the-meyers-farm/supporters), and a Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-Frank-Marjorie-Meyers-Farm/1419959788219689?ref=br_tf) trying to raise awareness has almost 28,000 likes.

However, Meyers does not have the law on his side.

"Every level of government -- federal, provincial and city -- has the right to take away your land," real estate lawyer Mark Weisleder told Canada AM. "What they have to demonstrate though, is that it's for the greater public good. That's the test." ....
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Bread Guy on February 17, 2014, 20:16:54
The Info-machine cranks up a Backgrounder on the proposed expansion (http://bit.ly/1jM6tdA) - maps attached....
Quote
In the early 2000s, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces began considering a new location to accommodate the growing needs of the Canadian Special Operations Forces Command (CANSOFCOM), as their current facility in Dwyer Hill, Ontario was too small.

Following the identification of this requirement, an extensive options analysis was conducted in 2005 and 2006 to determine the best possible option.  The key criteria for a new location included close proximity to an existing DND/CAF facility; easy access from all parts of Canada; and an area large enough to support various requirements such as water-oriented training.

That said, the primary criterion was to identify potential locations that would result in minimal disruptions to the local population, affecting the fewest people and avoiding impacts to public infrastructure such as roads and railways. With the view to limiting disruptions to surrounding communities, particular attention was given to areas where the Government of Canada owned unused property contiguous with Canadian Armed Forces facilities.

In light of these criteria, DND/CAF analysis determined that expanding 8 Wing Trenton was the most appropriate course of action.  It was then determined that expanding directly north of the wing was the most appropriate course of action, considering the significantly higher number of residents and established businesses whose land and installation would have had to be purchased or expropriated east and west of the selected area.  Furthermore, expanding east of the selected area would have meant expanding in an area not contiguous to the Wing and creating additional restrictions due to the landing strip final approach. Also, a storage unit, pharmaceutical warehouses and a municipal works depot are being built immediately west of the selected area, thus making this area unsuitable for the expansion.

8 Wing Trenton is the largest Royal Canadian Air Force Base in the country and the hub of Canada’s strategic airlift capability, which will facilitate the deployment of our Special Forces. 8 Wing Trenton’s prime location along Highway 401 allows for a rapid response to emergencies in major Canadian population centres, like Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa.

In 2007, with a view of purchasing their properties, the Government of Canada began approaching residents of the area bordering the northern edge of 8 Wing, RCAF Road to the west, Whites Road to the east and the railway track to the north.  A total of twelve homeowners were affected.  The situation was explained to each homeowner and a price for their land was negotiated based on market value. As of May 2012, all but two landowners voluntarily sold their properties to the Government of Canada.  The last two properties were expropriated in May 2012 and, subsequently, compensation agreements were signed.

Over the years, the Wing has been able to build and maintain solid working relationships with the Municipality of Quinte West.  The municipality has been consulted and continues to be consulted on various aspects of the project to ensure local concerns were addressed; including the increased traffic flow on municipal roads around the site.

In May 2010, the municipal council of Quinte West unanimously adopted a resolution supporting the acquisition of  “"all lands required for the relocation of the JTF2 unit to the City of Quinte West through the use of all means necessary up to, and including, expropriation"”.  Shortly thereafter, the municipal council of Belleville adopted a similar motion. The Quinte West municipal reiterated this position in a new resolution in February 2014.

Work on the 400-acre expansion of 8 Wing Trenton and the construction of a new training and administrative campus has begun with the site preparation, which includes the demolition and removal of buildings on DND property.  Once completed, detailed design and construction of the new campus will commence.

The expansion of 8 Wing Trenton, and the associated construction, is expected to have a long-lasting positive economic impact on the community and the region, generating many direct and indirect job creation opportunities stemming from the construction of the project and the arrival of new families once the installations are completed.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Gizmo 421 on February 17, 2014, 21:44:33
Hey, I can see my house and where I work in the first picture.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Mac Isaac on February 17, 2014, 22:06:03
I have frank(farmer) on my facebook lol
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Bread Guy on May 23, 2014, 21:34:03
Bumped with the latest, via an open letter in support of the last man standing (http://bit.ly/1t4ewT9) ....
Quote
On the night of Wednesday the 22nd of May, certain interested parties took the opportunity of darkness to plant cement “Jersey Barriers” around a farm near C.F.B Trenton.  Frank and Marjorie Meyers’ farm is being successfully hunted down by CFB Trenton because they need the land. Frank & Marjorie have been hunted for years. They are older than those chasing them and are in the way of progress and military prerogative. Lots of people support their right to live out their life on the land they own and nurtured to make their livelihood, but some pencil pushing military power tripper decided, “we need this land”. If that self-important git would like to meet me, it would be my pleasure.

So for years now, the Meyers have been harassed and intimidated. Last night, in a cowardly attempt to avoid the press someone was ordered to begin the process of taking someone’s land away from them through coerced and mis-leading expropriation.

It could be that the nighttime was the right time because a whole bunch of commissioned officers had golf starting times at the CFB Trenton Golf Course. Yes, they have that much land available, but they need to take a Canadian’s land because they want it. SCOREGolf Magazine Describes the golf course as, ”…located on the north side of the airfield. The clubhouse includes a pro-shop, locker rooms, covered deck and a complete food and beverage outlet.” ....
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: PMedMoe on May 23, 2014, 22:39:16
Wasn't that settled months ago?  I'm sorry, Mr. Meyers has had well more than his five minutes of fame..... 
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Bread Guy on May 25, 2014, 19:31:38
I'm sorry, Mr. Meyers has had well more than his five minutes of fame..... 
Ten more minutes to go (http://yhoo.it/1h3hTdk), it seems ....
Quote
An Ontario farmer who has fought for years to save his historic land from the Canadian military—a battle bolstered in recent months by tens of thousands of online supporters—will soon have nothing left to fight for.

Demolition workers gathered on Frank Meyers’s former property early Wednesday morning, installing a concrete barricade and delivering large metal shipping containers in preparation for a razing that his family—and many sympathetic strangers—have been dreading. Contacted by Maclean’s, a spokeswoman for the Department of National Defence (DND) confirmed that the controversial site has been “secured” for demolition, a “standard practice to ensure public safety.”

As for when the teardown will officially begin, DND won’t say. But the sudden prep work suggests the excavators will arrive at any moment, poised to rip down the old Meyers barn and numerous other sheds ....
Title: JTF2 Move to Trenton in Jeopardy Again?
Post by: Tulsa01 on June 29, 2016, 23:31:24
So I'm hearing that the cost of moving JTF2 from Dwyer Hill to Trenton has nearly tripled from $346M to over $1B, a final decision is due in Summer 2017. Some are saying now that the whole concept will likely be scrapped. What do you guys think? 
Title: Re: JTF2 Move to Trenton in Jeopardy Again?
Post by: SeaKingTacco on June 29, 2016, 23:37:56
I think that those who know, won't say.

Those who say, don't know.
Title: Re: JTF2 Move to Trenton in Jeopardy Again?
Post by: PuckChaser on June 29, 2016, 23:42:25
Would make a real nice photo op for the PM after the slash to funding this year. He could take a selfie with some assaulters.
Title: Re: JTF2 Move to Trenton in Jeopardy Again?
Post by: Good2Golf on June 30, 2016, 01:15:38
So I'm hearing that the cost of moving JTF2 from Dwyer Hill to Trenton has nearly tripled from $346M to over $1B, a final decision is due in Summer 2017. Some are saying now that the whole concept will likely be scrapped. What do you guys think?

I think since you're neither Mr. Forester, Monsieur Rochette, nor Mr. Pitfield, it doesn't matter what you've heard.

   ::)
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Bread Guy on February 10, 2020, 21:53:56
Necrothread bumped with the latest (https://www.nsnews.com/liberals-pull-plug-on-decade-old-plan-to-move-elite-joint-task-force-2-unit-1.24072696) ...
Quote
The federal Liberal government is pulling the plug on a decade-old plan to move the military's elite Joint Task Force 2 to a new base, ending years of speculation and uncertainty for the commando unit's members and their families.

The decision, announced Monday by Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan in response to a question from The Canadian Press, comes despite the previous Conservative government's having spent millions acquiring land for a new facility near Canadian Forces Base Trenton in Ontario.

"In the changing global security environment, we remain focused on making sure that the Canadian special forces are equipped to deal with these challenges," Sajjan said in an emailed statement.

"I want to assure those who are serving with JTF2 and their families that we have no plans to move this facility out of Ottawa."

While the minister did not provide reasons for the decision, defence officials have previously spoken of a desire to keep JTF2, whose primary role is counter-terror missions in Canada and abroad, close to Ottawa to guard against terrorist attacks ...
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: daftandbarmy on February 10, 2020, 22:09:47
Necrothread bumped with the latest (https://www.nsnews.com/liberals-pull-plug-on-decade-old-plan-to-move-elite-joint-task-force-2-unit-1.24072696) ...

"While the minister did not provide reasons for the decision, defence officials have previously spoken of a desire to keep JTF2, whose primary role is counter-terror missions in Canada and abroad, close to Ottawa to guard against terrorist attacks ..."

The distance from Hereford to London is still 130 miles.... just sayin'  ::)

https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp&ei=gQxCXsKDMO3A0PEPmsCfgA0&q=distance+from+hereford+to+london&oq=distance+from+hereford+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0l4j0i22i30l6.2423.9203..10961...0.0..0.214.2230.15j7j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i131j0i10.KjpmnGXGzQo#spf=1581386885213
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: dapaterson on February 10, 2020, 22:26:28
The distance from Hereford to London is still 130 miles.... just sayin'  ::)

But what colour is the boathouse?
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Old Sweat on February 10, 2020, 22:32:40
Hmmm, this is interesting because the "buzz" was that the MND at the time disliked SOF as unmilitary. So, he wanted JTF2 moved out of his riding.

There really isn't a classic boathouse.

Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: CloudCover on February 10, 2020, 22:48:42
JTF2 like all ninja forces, does not “guard against terror attacks.” What a stupid statement. They may respond to a terror attack if they are given notice.
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: dapaterson on February 10, 2020, 23:17:15


There really isn't a classic boathouse.

You're no Sean Bean...

#Ronin
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: PuckChaser on February 10, 2020, 23:44:09
Scuttled the move because of pushback by stakeholders, or because of the cost? The facility likely was in the neighbourhood of $500M, and why would they put that kind of money into the CAF with a $25B a year deficit?
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Bread Guy on February 11, 2020, 11:05:48
The facility likely was in the neighbourhood of $500M, and why would they put that kind of money into the CAF with a $25B a year deficit?
If you believe Postmedia, according to the latest update article ...
Quote
... There have also been reports that the cost of the new base had skyrocketed in recent years, with Postmedia quoting internal Defence Department documents from 2016 as saying the price had more than tripled from $364 million to $1.2 billion ...
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: PuckChaser on February 11, 2020, 12:02:10
Doesn't surprise me, probably wanted gold-plated urinals in there...
Title: Re: JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?
Post by: Navy_Pete on February 11, 2020, 13:24:20
JTF2 like all ninja forces, does not “guard against terror attacks.” What a stupid statement. They may respond to a terror attack if they are given notice.

Which is an especially weird statement, given that the actual terror attack in Ottawa was sorted out by the Sgt at arms and local constables on the Hill. It was pretty much over by the time the local RCMP and Ottawa Police tactical teams responded, let alone enough time for JTF2 to mobilize and respond.