Author Topic: Russia's Arctic Militarization (merged)  (Read 50889 times)

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Russia's Arctic Militarization (merged)
« on: September 17, 2008, 17:04:18 »
Oh this should end well.


Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic


 "We must finalise and adopt a federal law on the southern border of Russia's Arctic zone," Mr Medvedev told a meeting of the Security Council, in remarks carried by Interfax news agency.

"This is our responsibility, and simply our direct duty, to our descendents," he said. "We must surely, and for the long-term future, secure Russia's interests in the Arctic."
Global warming has stepped up the fight for the disputed Arctic, believed to be laden with vast reserves of oil and gas. Russia has pitted itself against Canada, Denmark, Norway and the United States to fight for a greater part of the region, arguing that most of it is Russian territory since an underwater ridge links Siberia to the North Pole's seabed.

Last August, a Russian mini-submarine carrying politicians and scientists plunged to the depths of the Arctic and claimed to plant a Russian flag to mark Moscow's stake in the territory.

Footage of the alleged planting was widely broadcast on Russian television – but later turned out to be images taken from the Hollywood blockbuster Titanic.
Under international law, each of the five countries that lay claim to the Arctic own a 320-kilometre zone that extends north from their shores. That arrangement is up for UN review in May next year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/2976009/Russia-threatens-to-seize-swathe-of-Arctic.html
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2008, 22:15:56 »
Sounds like they are setting the groundwork for some hard-nosed negotiations come next May...

Offline oligarch

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2008, 23:30:38 »
Negotiations will proceed according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, with participation by all artic states, including Canada, that have claimed a piece of the arctic that extends beyond the 200 mile economic zone originally allocation. So far Norway, Russia, Canada, and Denmark, launched projects to establish claims that certain Arctic sectors should belong to their territories. There is no "seizing a swthe" coming up in the near future, just political and geological discussions.

Offline Greymatters

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 00:41:29 »
Negotiations will proceed according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, with participation by all artic states, including Canada, that have claimed a piece of the arctic that extends beyond the 200 mile economic zone originally allocation. So far Norway, Russia, Canada, and Denmark, launched projects to establish claims that certain Arctic sectors should belong to their territories. There is no "seizing a swthe" coming up in the near future, just political and geological discussions.

Its never 'just' discussion - outlandous claims by Russia/USSR are often usually a prelude to more serious talks, where dropping of said outlandish claims is expected to net them a reward somewhere else.  Its a standard tactic ever since the days of Molotov...

Offline gun runner

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 21:35:50 »
Ok, another reason why we should not elect the Liberals into the PM's office. Dion is positioning his party to kill the arctic sovereignty objectives that the Conservatives are pushing for...and this is looming on the horizon! Ubique
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Offline Snafu-Bar

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 21:40:37 »

 Well by a swath, they do take up most of the area near the pole as we do, and they are entitled to the area that is on THIER side of the pole as just as we are seeking to maintain the region on our side of the pole.

 Cheers.

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Offline gun runner

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 21:44:09 »
And if they decide that we are not using our side ...so we'll take that one too!! Then what? My dad always told me not to trust the Russians, They have two faces and three hearts, and will stab you in the back just a soon as look at you! IMHO. Ubique
Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Sir Winston Churchill.

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Offline Snafu-Bar

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 21:53:18 »

 Well in the end we have no capabilities on our OWN, to withstand the Russian's if they so choose to take what they want by force....However with the rest of the world watching, we atleast stand the chance to Peacefully resolve any territorial issues.

 I'm pretty sure not many want the end results of a full out world war 3 with nuclear fallout...

Cheers.

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Offline gun runner

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 22:25:46 »
Yes, you have a point but wars have been started on less. Ubique
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Offline Paul W...

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 22:57:06 »
Putin is trouble.

As long as Putin is in power we're going to have trouble with Russia over our Northen resources.

We going to need an even stonger force to protect our Northern territories than the one Harper is buying us.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6580938720868203336

 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 23:07:32 by Paul W... »
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Offline Snafu-Bar

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 23:10:34 »

 Factor in the US interest and we're in a fkd if we do and completely fkd if don't situation.

 On one side we have the Russians, and they have a pretty sizable chunk of the arctic coastline leading to the pole as it is, hopefully they are only seeking to claim the lands leading to the pole withing thier geographic rights.

 On the other we have the US with thier Alaska coastlines jammed tween us and as such are looking to get as far east,west and north as they can in thier own search for resources.


 The way i see it is, we ixnay the Ruskies and give up something to the US for the allied assistance regarding thier military and nuclear assistance in exchange for a sizable yet not overly exuberant chunck of the north.

 There is no hope of staking the full claim on the areas bordering our coastline all the way to the pole without one of the two taking liberties on that claim.

 Cheers.
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Offline Paul W...

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2008, 23:27:45 »
The US will respect our soveriegnty,our politicans will allow them to drill for the oil and gas that's in our territory anyways,that'll be the reason why the US will respect our territories and stand up to Russia for us.

If anything happens I hope we can at least participate,if not run any military operation,if anything ever does happen.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 23:39:49 by Paul W... »
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 23:38:59 »
The sad thing is that while Russia, Denmark, the US & others get ready to sit down & negotiate hard for their chunks of the arctic pie -- we're still twiddling our thumbs & bickering with the beaurucrats about ship specs.  I really wish the politicians would realize that ships will be required to enforce any sovereignty claims we have - and they don't just magically appear once you sign a piece of paper.  Argh.
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Offline Snafu-Bar

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2008, 00:06:28 »
The sad thing is that while Russia, Denmark, the US & others get ready to sit down & negotiate hard for their chunks of the arctic pie -- we're still twiddling our thumbs & bickering with the beaurucrats about ship specs.  I really wish the politicians would realize that ships will be required to enforce any sovereignty claims we have - and they don't just magically appear once you sign a piece of paper.  Argh.

 Ships won't last long with the Russian Sub fleet poppin holes in the hulls at will. Not that they are not needed, but they are NOT going to be intimidating to the likes of the Russian's or American's when it comes down to nitty gritty time. it is long overdue and by the time they go into service too little too late. As always.

 Cheers.
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2008, 00:20:07 »
The US will respect our soveriegnty,our politicans will allow them to drill for the oil and gas that's in our territory anyways,that'll be the reason why the US will respect our territories and stand up to Russia for us.  If anything happens I hope we can at least participate,if not run any military operation,if anything ever does happen. 

Hmmm... we're more like a buffer zone sometimes...

Offline old medic

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2008, 00:50:38 »
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2008/09/18/6807866-ap.html

U.S. says Russia's decision to mark Arctic boundary is an internal affair
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Quote
WASHINGTON - The United States says Russia's decision to delineate its southern Arctic boundary appears to be an internal administrative move that will have no standing in international law.

A statement from the office of State Department spokesman Sean McCormack outlined the procedure for defining the extent of a country's continental shelf under the Law of the Sea Convention.

"Based on information available to us at this point in time, we have no reason to believe the Russians are proposing a different course of action," the statement said.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Wednesday that Russia must mark its Arctic territory to ensure its development and competitiveness in global markets over the long term.

He told his Security Council that quick legislation is necessary to ensure delineation of Russia southern zone in the "strategically important Arctic region.

"Marking of the external border of the continental shelf is a long-term goal," Medvedev said.

The State Department statement said the United States has no information about any proposed Russian Arctic legislation. Medvedev's public statements indicated, however, that the effort is to define the Arctic's boundary within the Russian land mass.

"Arctic nations use different criteria for defining the portions of their territory considered to be part of their Arctic regions," the statement said. "The definitions are generally for the purpose of internal administration and have no standing in international law."

It said the Russians are gathering scientific evidence to support their earlier contention that the country's continental shelf reaches the North Pole. A technical commission under the Law of the Sea Convention will recommend based on scientific criteria the disposition of the submission, the statement said.

"The Russian Federation is within its rights to delineate an extended continental shelf so long as the outer limits are consistent with international law as supported by sound scientific data. Other Arctic nations are in the process of gathering the necessary scientific data to support their own delineations of extended shelf in the Arctic Ocean," the State Department said.

In May of this year, Russia and the other Arctic countries - Canada, Denmark, Norway and the United States - recommitted themselves to an orderly settlement under the convention of any overlapping claims.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2008, 01:17:41 »
.....and if I (personally) had anything to do with the discussion, I MAY have some worries about it. No matter MY feelings though, I'm not losing sleep over it.

The governance of international courts, and their decisions, the wacky crap they decide on, is not going to be changed by me, you or this forum. Groups like Power Corporation decide.

If you want to see for yourself, Power Corporation owns most of the politicians in this country. Brian Mulroney, Jean Chretien et famille, Paul Martin, the whole Rae family, amongst others. Liberal, Conservative, NDP.

Stephen Harper is conspicuous by his absence. He also seems to be the only one that has done anything about the impending problem there, given all the years it's been a concern.

***** and whine all you want. Come the election, you can make your choice of the party that will persue your interest there, based on Canada, or profits for Power Corporation.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline gun runner

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2008, 01:27:26 »

The sad thing is that while Russia, Denmark, the US & others get ready to sit down & negotiate hard for their chunks of the arctic pie -- we're still twiddling our thumbs & bickering with the beaurucrats about ship specs.  I really wish the politicians would realize that ships will be required to enforce any sovereignty claims we have - and they don't just magically appear once you sign a piece of paper.  Argh.


Can you imagine our ice breakers with deck guns and torpedoe tubes? It might just come to that.Ubique
Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Sir Winston Churchill.

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Offline Harley Sailor

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2008, 08:49:06 »
Can you imagine our ice breakers with deck guns and torpedoe tubes? It might just come to that.Ubique

Or maybe we should just make AORs for the Navy that are not just gun ships, but Icebreakers as well.

Offline Harley Sailor

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2008, 08:55:29 »
Let us not forget what happened with the Alaskan panhandle.  We lost the fight over that because there was not enough concern.  Too many people didn't care because it was way up there and of no value to them.  Heck, even the mother land (Great Britian) voted against us. How can we expect to keep the Arctic if we don't keep up the discussion with our friends and families.  Help spread the word and maybe we can boost the interest.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2008, 09:56:21 »
Greymatters - since the advent of the long range bomber our principal role has been that of a buffer and a killing ground.   Look at where the Pinetree line was located.

Harley - all they have to do is build a 25,000 tonne boat that will bust through 10 feet of multiyear ice and maintain a convoy speed of 25 knots.

I do think that one of the jobs of the AOPVs could be as tenders for maintaining an underwater network of sensors and weapons, both fixed and mobile, as well as remotely operated and semi-autonomous (subject to "weapons free" protocols).



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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2008, 10:44:01 »
Quote
Can you imagine our ice breakers with deck guns and torpedoe tubes? It might just come to that.Ubique

I would think there still would be too much residual noise for torpedoes to be effective in Arctic waters. Even so you are probably still not going to see a CCG icebreaker armed, unless their mandate changes drastically.
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2008, 12:12:43 »
Greymatters - since the advent of the long range bomber our principal role has been that of a buffer and a killing ground.   Look at where the Pinetree line was located.

You're singing to the choir - but its not an opinion that a lot of people like to hear....

Offline geo

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 13:10:30 »
With the Russian stock market going down the tubes & chances are the Russian economy will follow, methinks Mr Putin & sidekick are looking at some patriotic turn of events to distract their constituents.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2008, 13:26:20 »
With the Russian stock market going down the tubes & chances are the Russian economy will follow, methinks Mr Putin & sidekick are looking at some patriotic turn of events to distract their constituents.

Agreed, and see my comments, here. The Russians should have enough cash (from selling oil to Europe) to recapitalize their banks and provide enough liquidity to allow honest business to weather this crisis, but ... It's Putin and his thugs, after all, anything can happen.
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