Author Topic: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy  (Read 66787 times)

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Offline Remius

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2008, 14:58:01 »
Hehe.

They won'tr take it.  They'll just buy it up...
Optio

Offline Colin P

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2008, 15:16:54 »
Colin P:

Then why not articulate them?  That's what the Martin/Liberal Defence Policy Statement did.  I wasn't a fan, because I didn't think the Liberals would actually deliver on their fine words, but at least they put those words to paper to guide the force development and employment parameters.

Here's what I suspect is happening:

  • There was significant conflict between Hillier and O’Connor over this policy statement which prevented its release except in snippets over the past few years and usually made by the MND on his own.
  • There are supporting documents, but they are for the most part still under negotiation or being developed and face the challenge of competing visions.
  • The government is trying to shift the focus of the debate back to their election platform which is about protecting Canada’s north and building increased capability in various parts of the country (i.e. maritime commando unit in Comox, northern trg centre in Goose Bay, ice hardened frigates and an arctic port, heavy lift helos and Bagotville, territorial battalion for major population centres, etc.) and not about progressing the war in Afghanistan. They think it is an election winner and would rather fight an election on this than over the war.
  • They are doing it at this time because the CDS, who had been the key roadblock on much of this is on the way out, and before a new CDS is brought on board who may oppose it, especially if it’s Natynczyk.

I'm afraid this sounds more than plausible to me, it sounds downright likely.
You may be very right, but in this brief period of "instability" (for lack of a better word) we have received, new tanks, new aircraft and now new helicopters, along with several other specialized pieces of equipment.  Not to mention taken an army forced feed peacekeeping and turned it back into the fighting machine it was renowned for. I will take more this and less of the previous "status quo"  :)

Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2008, 15:51:02 »
I agree with Babbling Brooks.

The danger is that without an overall plan, some or all of the procurement and training programs may invalidate other programs.

Look at the C-17 buy for an example. The MGS procurement heavily influenced the ACP-S procurement plan. When we switched from the MGS to the Leo 2, ACP-S had a bit of a wrench thrown into it to the extent that we can't actually do what we got the C-17 to do.

Offline rifleman

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2008, 16:21:11 »
Hopefully this means I can do my next business plan through a brief speech and not commit to it ;D

Offline Colin P

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2008, 16:56:29 »
Hopefully this means I can do my next business plan through a brief speech and not commit to it ;D

Well I have yet to see a business plan written in government that was adhered to even for one fiscal year. In DFO we only got our unit budget confirmed in November.

Offline Richie

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2008, 17:26:36 »
Hence, my initial point which is remove the Civilian weak-link from decisions that affect national security.  Democracy works - but has it's flaws too.  A clear policy must be in place for Defense.


That civilian "weak link" you refer to is democracy. Removing the civilian connection from national security decisions would be very dangerous; it would likely mean something like the German Navy Laws of the early twentieth century which restricted the ability of the Reichstag to control annual defence expenditures. This is an assault on the very nature of democracy.
As you said, democracy has its flaws but I'll take democracy, warts and all, over a military role in determining government policy any day.
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2008, 17:34:13 »
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, is the National Post’s Don Martin’s take on the issue:

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=510307
Quote
Election the real battlefront of Harper's military plan

Don Martin, National Post
Published: Monday, May 12, 2008

With lines of soldiers standing tall in potted-plant formation as a camera-friendly backdrop, the Prime Minister announced Monday a 20-year glimpse into the Canadian military's future.

Only one thing was missing: the strategy itself.

There are 45 paragraphs of background rhetoric, all of it announcement regurgitation from earlier budgets, but the complete plan is apparently locked inside Prime Minister Stephen Harper's brain, albeit requiring the odd whispered correction from Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

"The strategy was enunciated today by the Prime Minister and the Minister," said a Defence spokesman responding to my request to read the actual plan. "So the strategy is what they unveiled.

Huh? Keep in mind this defence vision has been years in the crafting and has gone through multiple drafts to make sure every comma was correctly placed. So now, it seems, what was listed by Chief of Defence Staff Rick Hillier as a top task for his replacement doesn't actually exist in written form beyond speaking notes. Very odd.

Perhaps the best explanation came from one retired military officer, who confided to me a few months ago that the real purpose of the strategy was to arm the Prime Minister with military plans for election campaign battle.

The body language of the Prime Minister supports the notion this was a rushed rollout, conveniently located in Halifax to keep Mr. Harper away from the Commons lest his Foreign Affairs Minister's dating history become a hot topic of Liberal attack.

Appearing uncharacteristically disengaged, Mr. Harper fumbled answers to basic questions on equipment and needed his budgetary math corrected by a modest $10- billion at one point. That's perfectly understandable, but as anyone who has watched Mr. Harper would know, he's usually better briefed and prepared than his ministers.

In any event, it took mere minutes before local reporters, picking up signals they were being used as stenographers for a government propaganda release, demanded to know what, if anything, was new about the strategy.

"The newest thing about this announcement is that it is a long-term plan," Mr. Harper insisted. So the plan is the news and it doesn't exist except in verbal form. Gosh.

Even if it were written down, there would be problems with a 20-year military buildup blueprint.

Mr. Harper promises regular increases in military budgets, which may or, more likely, may not be shared or allowed by future finance ministers.

And it's clearly presumptuous to envision Canada's place in the world two decades hence without providing any clear emphasis or directional preference for domestic, continental or international challenges.

Given that nobody could have foreseen Canada's greatest military effort of the last 50 years would be in Kandahar, a dusty dot on an Afghan map few could have found at the millennium turn, prophetic accuracy is difficult, if not impossible, and that complicates equipment requirements.

Just five years ago, for example, Canada's military leaders elevated search and rescue aircraft to the top of their priority list and would have laughed out loud at the notion of hauling refurbished Leopard tanks out of retirement for Afghanistan duty.

Yet this let's-pretend document salivates for tanks and barely mentions fixed-wing aircraft, surrendering the job of patrolling 71,261 kilometres of coastline and our vast interior to the duct-taped-together Buffalo and Aurora fleet for another decade.

OK, let's give the Conservatives some credit. At least they have confirmed a constant direction forward by pledging annual money boosts, a major manpower increase and orderly equipment upgrades. If future governments continue to provide advanced military firepower, Canada will be ready for flexible deployments upon demand anywhere in the world.

Still, the priorities for Mr. Harper could be shelved as the first act of post-election business by another prime minister. Lest we forget, the Mulroney era pledged new helicopters, which were quickly scrapped in the Chrétien era.

If Mr. Harper wants to push Canada's military in a particular direction, he might consider appointing a new Chief of Defence Staff soon to learn the secrets to military manoeuvring from Gen. Hillier. That decision is overdue.

But when it comes to spotting long-range military targets, vision deteriorates rapidly with age and, because it's limited to the gap between elections or changes in prime ministers, is chronically short-sighted.

National Post

dmartin@nationalpost.com

First, Martin is wrong: we have a strategy, but there’s no use asking a “Defence spokesman” about it because DND is only peripherally involved in the process.

Our strategy is, as it has been for about sixty years: collective security.

We continue to believe that only through collective action can we, Canada, achieve the sorts (the plural maters) of security we need: military security, social (domestic) security, economic security and so on.

Our strategy continues to work through a wide range of multilateral institutions: big ones like the UN and its members agencies (more important, strategically, than the UN, proper), medium sized ones like NATO and the OECD, and small, even bilateral ones like NAFTA and NORAD.

Our strategy is multi-faceted and defence budgets have very little to do with it. The strategy here, in the Halifax announcement, is more akin to a “strategy for national dental fitness” than it is to grand strategy.

Second Martin is right: this is just a rehash of existing equipment, organizational and budget measures – with some added delay. It is a non-news item designed, I suspect, to get the PM to Halifax to watch a hockey game and to strengthen Peter MacKay’s reputation in Nova Scotia where he will be challenged by Green Party leader Elizabeth May. I'm guessing the hockey game was the PM's highest priority.

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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline stegner

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2008, 17:41:21 »
Quote
Good Try.  How's about:

1. Executive
2. Legislative
3. Judicial

The executive branch has final say on what the military does, the legislative funds it.  The GG represents the top of the executive branch (excluding the queen herself).  The military runs on order of the GG in a letter of the law legal way.  "Crown in Parliament" refers to is the monarch historically ceding power to the legislative house to pass binding laws, but only in practice, which is why all laws still require royal ascent to be binding.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the ordering and structuring of power within Canada.

In reality, the Prime Minister empowered by the backing of the government of the day (usually his majority party) calls the shots....the PM through consultation with his ministers makes a decision to utilize the military who's action is at best rubber stamped by the GG (and hence the monarch).  To say though that Parliament runs the military is practically correct, but legally incorrect.

I was not talking about ordering and structuring power.  I merely wanting to show there are three elements to Parliament.  However, you are thinking of the three branches of government which is not the same as the the three branches of Parliament.  The judiciary is not part of Parliament.   The PM is.  Thus, Parliament controls the military because the PM sits as an MP as do his Cabinet Ministers who are accountable to the House, the House of Commons funds the military and the Governor General signs off on deployments and he or she is welcome to say no to the PM-though this would be most unusual.   

Offline Bread Guy

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2008, 21:05:41 »
Well, here's part of the "strategy" - PM's speech text (and a .pdf permalink should the link ever not work).  Still nothing as of this posting on the DefMin's web page - and I look forward to that part, since the PM closes with saying, "now I will call on Minister MacKay to give some of the details."

PM unveils Canada First Defence Strategy
12 May 2008
Halifax, Nova Scotia

Thank you very much, Sub Lieutenant, for that kind introduction.  Chief of Defence Staff General Hillier, Vice Chief Lieutenant General Natynczyk, all other senior members of the Armed Forces, Minister MacKay, Senator Oliver, I see Minister Taylor here from the provincial government, and of course, members of the Canadian Forces, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm very pleased to be here at the Halifax Armoury, and very pleased to be joined by some of our finest citizens, some of the most admirable people in our great country; the men and women of the Canadian Forces.  Every day through your service, you and your comrades across Canada and around the world are protecting our nation's sovereignty and security.  Canadians are grateful and rightly proud of the work you do.  They recognize that you are heirs to a long and honourable tradition of military service in Canada, as the Sub Lieutenant mentioned, and they are also rightly proud of that history as well.

We've never gone looking for a fight in Canada, but whenever war has been thrust upon us, Canadians have proven themselves among the bravest, most skilled and most successful soldiers, sailors and airmen on earth:  repelling the invaders at Queenston Heights, storming Vimy Ridge, taking Juno Beach on D-Day, saving Seoul at the battle of Kap'yong, staring down the Soviets in the Cold War, peacekeeping missions in numerous countries, taking on terrorists in Afghanistan. These are some of the great milestones of our nationhood.  They remind us of who we are, what we believe in, and why we stand on guard for the True North Strong and Free.  Now, some thought the end of the Cold War would mark the so-called end of history; that all future conflicts would be resolved by soft power; that we could simply lay down our arms and rest in peace.  Thus began the so-called decade of darkness for the Canadian Forces.  Even as new conflicts erupted in Africa, the Balkans and elsewhere, our military was starved and neglected.  They kept getting new responsibilities, but not the tools to keep them going.  Equipment was rusting out, manpower was declining, morale was sinking.  We did almost nothing to assert our sovereignty in our North, in our Arctic.  We had to hitch rides on American aircraft to deliver troops for disaster relief within our own country.  Our capacity for peacekeeping, delivering humanitarian assistance, and taking up arms when necessary began to noticeably diminish.

Ladies and gentlemen, if a country wants to be taken seriously in the world, it must have the capacity to act.  It's that simple.  Otherwise, you forfeit your right to be a player.  You're the one chattering on the sidelines that everybody smiles at but nobody listens to.  Our government is committed to ensuring that Canada not only has an opinion, but that Canada is heard, that Canada is protected, and that Canada is a force for good, for positive change in the world.

Today I'm proud to unveil the Canada First defence strategy, our government's comprehensive, long-term plan to ensure the Canadian Forces have the people, equipment and support they need to do what we ask them to do.  This announcement is a significant part of the commitment we made during the last election; the commitment to stand up for Canada.

As the name implies, the first priority of our Canada First defence strategy is to strengthen our ability to defend our country and protect our citizens.  Minister MacKay will get into the details in a moment, but the bottom line is that we will substantially strengthen the Canadian Forces, we will gradually increase the numbers of regular troops and reservists, and provide them with more and better equipment to make them as effective and as safe as possible.  Renewal of the Canadian Forces is the most pressing priority. Like the national workforce, the average age in the military has been rising, so we're going to recruit and train a new generation of soldiers, sailors and airmen, just as we're going to renew our aging fleets of aircraft, ships and military vehicles with next-generation state-of-the-art equipment.  The Canada First strategy will improve surveillance of our land and coastal borders.  It will also bolster our capacity to provide support for civilian authorities in the event of natural disasters, and it will help to provide security to major international events like the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver.

Our second priority is to ensure we meet our commitments for continental security.  Canada's fortunate in many ways to have a defence alliance with the United States that has been nurtured for decades by governments, both Conservative and Liberal.  This relationship, however, only works if it is governed by mutual respect, and the way to earn that respect is to ensure Canada shoulders its fair share of the burden of defending North America, including through our obligations under NORAD.

After ensuring the security of our country and continent, the third priority of our strategy will be our contribution to global security.  Canadians have long desired to share the peace and prosperity we enjoy with less fortunate people in the world, and we have always answered the call of the world community to respond to global threats and international crises, just as we are now doing as part of the United Nations mission in Afghanistan.  Our strategy will ensure that Canada continues to be a robust and reliable contributor to global security and humanitarian interventions.

Beyond strengthening our security at home and abroad, the Canada First defence strategy will deliver significant economic benefits for Canadians.  This unprecedented commitment of stable, long-term funding will provide good jobs and new opportunities for thousands, for tens of thousands of Canadians who work in defence industries and communities with military bases.  We intend to implement the defence strategy in tandem with a revised long-term procurement strategy designed to not just benefit but to build commercial capacity in the relevant knowledge and technology industries.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Canada First defence strategy will strengthen our sovereignty and our security.  Our government will ensure that Canadian Forces have the personnel and equipment they need to do their job, to protect our values and project our interests, to fulfill Canada's international commitments, to keep our True North strong and free.  Thank you very much, and now I will call on Minister MacKay to give some of the details.


“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2008, 20:40:13 »
Wait a minute, now - there IS a document somewhere, but now someone is deciding how much of it we see!

Contradictions surround Canada's defence policy
Mike Blanchfield ,  Canwest News Service, 14 May 08
Article link

OTTAWA - Canada's military strategy for the next 20 years exists in a document that, for now, is being withheld from the public and is for the eyes of federal cabinet only, Canwest News Service has learned.

"There is obviously a government document that lays this down in detail," a senior official from Defence Minister Peter MacKay's office said Wednesday. "There's a very detailed cabinet document that lays this down and more."

That revelation Wednesday contradicts the official government line that was put forth Monday when Prime Minister Stephen Harper and MacKay announced the "Canada First Defence Strategy" with great fanfare in Halifax. At the time, MacKay's spokesmen said Canadians would have to rely on the speeches of the prime minister and defence minister, not a written document that laid out the government's plans.

"It is not a 'document' like a White Paper," spokesman Jay Paxton said Monday. "The strategy is what they unveiled," added Dan Dugas, MacKay's senior spokesman.... 

On Wednesday, the official said the government is assessing what portions of the cabinet document can be made public so Canadians can get a better look at the new military plan.

"You've got the bones of it here," the official said, following an oral briefing at Defence Department headquarters in Ottawa in which senior military officials offered further explanations about the defence strategy.

"There is a very solid, detailed document in existence. It's not just stuff pulled out of the air," the official said.

The Forces have been working for two years on its defence capabilities plan. Last year, it produced a 39-page Canada First Strategy that was rejected by the current Conservative government because it was too detailed, and could be used by critics to more closely measure what projects were completed and what were not.

A senior military official, who would only speak on the condition of anonymity, said the creation of the current defence strategy was a two-year process that involved Treasury Board and the Finance Department.

"We have an investment plan that we've laid out in response to government direction to the department. Now the challenge is how do you lay this out into a format that Canadians can understand," said the official....
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2008, 22:37:07 »
I was just about to say to those who were complaining of no release of a detailed document, "Why on earth would Harper want to do that?"  The only thing that would accomplish would be to provide ammunition to the Liberals, NDP and Bloc.

How many times do you want to hear "It's a George Bush Plan!" in news soundbites?

It's better to just keep cranking up funding, and procuring what we need as quickly as they can.


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Offline stegner

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2008, 07:23:17 »
Quote
It's better to just keep cranking up funding, and procuring what we need as quickly as they can.

The House of Commons votes as a whole to fund DND and Harper's new defence vision  and withholding information will only aggravate the opposition and may lead to them not funding it.   BTW Canada is a democracy and is supposed to be open and accountable.  We are not China.   Thus, there needs to be democratic debate on what Canada's defence policy will be.   

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2008, 07:34:56 »
The House of Commons votes as a whole to fund DND and Harper's new defence vision  and withholding information will only aggravate the opposition and may lead to them not funding it.   BTW Canada is a democracy and is supposed to be open and accountable.  We are not China.   Thus, there needs to be democratic debate on what Canada's defence policy will be.   

Why should Harper be first?

There was no debate when St. Laurent more than doubled the size of the military in the 1949/51 period.

There was some, poorly focused debate when Hellyer proposed unification back in the early '60s.

There was no debate when Trudeau attempted to disarm Canada - and succeeded in emasculating the CF - in 1971.

There was "debate" of sorts when Mulroney issued a deeply flawed White Paper in the late '80s but it was mostly ridicule.

There was no debate when Chrétien decided we didn't need armed forces back in '94.

Why now?
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2008, 07:38:42 »
..............   Thus, there needs to be democratic debate on what Canada's defence policy will be.   

Why?  This has been done already.  We have a White Paper on Defence as a result of it.  So it is nearly fifty  ;D years old.  

Why do we elect our officials and let the ruling party form the Government and appoint members to Cabinet, if not to make our decisions for us?  Why must we now have a debate in Parliament for every decision that has to be made?  Is this some Third World parliament that is bogged down in personal vendettas and fist fights that you seek?  This is a Democracy, not a Socialist Regime.  Not every minute function of government requires debate on the floor of the Commons.   ::)
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2008, 08:23:09 »
Meanwhile clarification is muddied; the government remains communications-challenged:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=55539cbc-75a7-42fa-a7ef-b4b1f7334ec5

Quote
Canada's military strategy for the next 20 years exists in a document that, for now, is being withheld from the public and is for the eyes of federal cabinet only, Canwest News Service has learned.

"There is obviously a government document that lays this down in detail," a senior official from Defence Minister Peter MacKay's office said Wednesday. "There's a very detailed cabinet document that lays this down and more."

That revelation Wednesday contradicts the official government line that was put forth Monday when Prime Minister Stephen Harper and MacKay announced the "Canada First Defence Strategy" with great fanfare in Halifax. At the time, MacKay's spokesmen said Canadians would have to rely on the speeches of the prime minister and defence minister, not a written document that laid out the government's plans.

"It is not a 'document' like a White Paper," spokesman Jay Paxton said Monday. "The strategy is what they unveiled," added Dan Dugas, MacKay's senior spokesman...

Moreover, the cost of replacing heavy equipment is expected to cost much more than previously indicated by the government.

Lt.-Gen. Walt Natynczyk, the vice-chief of the defence staff, said replacing heavy equipment over the coming decades will also cost between $45 to $50 billion. That is significantly higher than the $30 billion price tag that MacKay and Harper announced on Monday to replace ships, maritime patrol aircraft, fixed-wing search and rescue planes and army combat vehicles.

Half of that will be spent on ship upgrades for the navy, specifically the upgrading of frigates and destroyers, said Natynczyk
[emphasis added]...

On Wednesday, the official said the government is assessing what portions of the cabinet document can be made public so Canadians can get a better look at the new military plan.

"You've got the bones of it here," the official said, following an oral briefing at Defence Department headquarters in Ottawa in which senior military officials offered further explanations about the defence strategy.

"There is a very solid, detailed document in existence. It's not just stuff pulled out of the air," the official said.

The Forces have been working for two years on its defence capabilities plan. Last year, it produced a 39-page Canada First Strategy that was rejected by the current Conservative government because it was too detailed, and could be used by critics to more closely measure what projects were completed and what were not [emphasis added]...

Overall, the annual defence budget will grow to $30 billion by 2028 from its current $18 billion based on the two-per cent annual increases that the Conservative plan now promises.

Military officials attempted to offer more details of the new defence spending plan at a briefing on Wednesday.

However, the event quickly went off the rails, when military officials told journalists that none of the assembled military experts could be quoted by name.

Only the opening remarks by Natynczyk, Canada's No. 2 soldier and the front-runner to replace Gen. Rick Hillier in July, were deemed quotable by defence officials.

Natynczyk rejected a request by journalists to hold the entire briefing on the record in the public interest.

Afterwards, some senior military officials expressed dissatisfaction with the ground rules for the briefing.

One senior officer used an expletive to express his dissatisfaction with how, in his view, the most proactive spending plan the Forces have ever seen was being communicated to the public.

"It's the policy of government," said another senior military official, who declined to say whether the ground rules were imposed by the prime minister's office.

Asked if he was comfortable with how the briefing had unfolded, the office said: "It becomes a challenge."

Military planners said they took a comprehensive modern approach to predict what global security risks or "conflict drivers" such as terrorism, climate change or population migration would drive up demand for the services of the Forces.

"Food is one, oil is another one, water is one," said another military official...

Dates:
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/425582

Quote
...The briefing served up a few more details on the plan, such as a rough schedule for the purchase of new fighter jets (2017), search-and-rescue planes (2015), destroyers (2017) and frigates (2024) [actually Single Class Surface Combattan, to replace both]. The ships will eat up more than half of the equipment budget...

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 08:44:46 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline MCG

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2008, 09:18:19 »
"There is a very solid, detailed document in existence. It's not just stuff pulled out of the air," the official said.

The Forces have been working for two years on its defence capabilities plan. Last year, it produced a 39-page Canada First Strategy that was rejected by the current Conservative government because it was too detailed, and could be used by critics to more closely measure what projects were completed and what were not.

A senior military official, who would only speak on the condition of anonymity, said the creation of the current defence strategy was a two-year process that involved Treasury Board and the Finance Department.
Would this be the SCIP?

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2008, 10:09:05 »
Quote
...The briefing served up a few more details on the plan, such as a rough schedule for the purchase of new fighter jets (2017), search-and-rescue planes (2015), destroyers (2017) and frigates (2024) [actually Single Class Surface Combattan, to replace both]. The ships will eat up more than half of the equipment budget...

Mark there is not SCSC anymore, its Destroyer Replacement Project. Any frigate will be be a version of the destroyer.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2008, 10:12:25 »
Question from a land type:
What is the difference between a frigate and a destroyer?
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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2008, 10:13:23 »
Ex-Dragoon: Thanks for the correction.

Mark
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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2008, 10:14:07 »
Question from a land type:
What is the difference between a frigate and a destroyer?

Our Frigate's are old, our destroyers are older.
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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2008, 10:28:34 »
Destroyer Replacement Project
http://www.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/ad-ad.nsf/en/ad03884e.html

Quote
Client Department:    Department of National Defence
Prime Contractor:    To be determined
Company Contact:       To be determined
Industry Canada Manager: Greg Browning   613-954-3266
                                       Mary Campbell   613-954-3789
Contract Period:    To be determined
Description:    Replacement of Iroquois Class vessels.

Mark
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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2008, 10:42:37 »
Why should Harper be first?
There was no debate when St. Laurent more than doubled the size of the military in the 1949/51 period.
There was some, poorly focused debate when Hellyer proposed unification back in the early '60s.
There was no debate when Trudeau attempted to disarm Canada - and succeeded in emasculating the CF - in 1971.
There was "debate" of sorts when Mulroney issued a deeply flawed White Paper in the late '80s but it was mostly ridicule.
There was no debate when Chrétien decided we didn't need armed forces back in '94.
Why now?

Why?  This has been done already.  We have a White Paper on Defence as a result of it.  So it is nearly fifty  ;D years old.  
Why do we elect our officials and let the ruling party form the Government and appoint members to Cabinet, if not to make our decisions for us?  Why must we now have a debate in Parliament for every decision that has to be made?  Is this some Third World parliament that is bogged down in personal vendettas and fist fights that you seek?  This is a Democracy, not a Socialist Regime.  Not every minute function of government requires debate on the floor of the Commons.   ::)

Both correct - I have no issue at all with government using constitutionally OK executive powers.

However, when a government commits itself to "improved accountability and transparency" (at least according to this news release from 2006), I'm only questioning the lack of documentation that can be scrutinized (especially since the last White Paper is so timely  ;) ).  After all, we can look at a "DND/CF STRATEGY MAP" (.pdf).

Other major democracies have similar documents online - quick Google shows United States and the United Kingdom as quick examples.

There is already public debate underway on the issue (including here), and all we can debate is the speech of the Prime Minister (which says the Defence Minister's speech will have the details - but still no DefMin speech made public).  The speech, and the reading of the tea leaves therein, is already providing fodder for the opposition anyway, so why not share a base document? 

Or do we have to read other tea leaves, like budget documents, estimates, RPP's and other arcane data to ferret out the truth?  I know I have no life and can dig, but how many other people who may want to debate the issue can?
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2008, 10:44:42 »
Question from a land type:
What is the difference between a frigate and a destroyer?

Traditionally a frigate was smaller then a destroyer but size these days have little to do with it. In the CF we use destroyers as flagships and to provide Area Air Defence duties. A frigate is used for general warfare duties.

Quote
Our Frigate's are old, our destroyers are older.
Our frigates still stack favourably to most other nations frigates, they are a capable platform and once FELEX is underway wil continue to do an outstanding job for Canada and the Navy.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2008, 10:55:09 »
Our frigates still stack favourably to most other nations frigates, they are a capable platform and once FELEX is underway wil continue to do an outstanding job for Canada and the Navy.

I didn't think I needed to put the smiley in, guess I was wrong.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Harper Outlines Canada's First Defence Strategy
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2008, 11:07:57 »
A defense white paper right now would be a godsend to the Liberal party, it would be like throwing them a lifeline. Politics is like war, with a minority government there is no real point investing a large amount of effort into a plan that may not last 6 months, once they have a majority then hold their feet to the fire.