Author Topic: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan  (Read 13964 times)

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Offline kilekaldar

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Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« on: January 12, 2008, 13:12:23 »
What does this mean exactly? "Dion and Ignatieff said they agreed with Karzai on the use of air and artillery strikes as weapons in the counter-insurgency fight."
Do they and other critics of air strikes and artillery fully realize the implications to NATO troops if we stop using it?
I doubt it, since Dion and other liberals are hopelessly ignorant of the realities of ground combat.
After all, it's not them getting shot at.

********************************


Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080112/dion_karzai_080112/20080112?hub=TopStories

Updated Sat. Jan. 12 2008 12:25 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Liberal Leader Stephane Dion and Deputy Leader Michael Ignatieff have met with Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai in Kabul.

But a CTV reporter in Kandahar said Saturday the meat of the meeting -- a continued presence by Canadian combat troops -- hasn't come out yet.

"That is the real heart of the matter here," he told Newsnet. "There are too few troops in Afghanistan, not too many."

A Liberal news release issued Saturday said they told Karzai that while the party believes Canada's combat mission should end in 2009, the party supports the continuation of diplomatic and development efforts.

"We are convinced after the day we've had that we will have plenty of things to do that will involve, yes, to take risks, but anywhere we will go whether Darfur or Haiti, there are always risks," Dion told reporters in Kabul.

"We are not afraid of the risks. But we want to sure that we have a balanced mission after 2009 that will be optimally helpful for the people of Afghanistan."

Karzai's reaction to the statement isn't known yet, but Oliver said reports indicate he thanked Canada for its service in his country to date.

Canada has about 2,500 troops operating in Kandahar province, one of the most violent regions in the country. Seventy-six of them have died since 2002, along with a Canadian diplomat.

The current mandate from Parliament has the combat mission ending in February 2009, but Prime Minister Stephen Harper would like to see it extended.

He is awaiting the report of a special blue-ribbon panel, chaired by hawkish former Liberal cabinet minister John Manley, to recommend a path forward for the mission.

Other issues

Dion and Ignatieff said they agreed with Karzai on the use of air and artillery strikes as weapons in the counter-insurgency fight.

The use of such firepower is being blamed for civilian deaths.

Dion and Ignatieff said they wanted a NATO-wide solution that protects detainees from being transferred into situations where they could face torture.

"This was a wonderful opportunity to meet face-to-face with President Karzai to hear first-hand the impact that troops and civilians are having here," Dion said.

"The Liberal Party of Canada is very proud of the contributions our men and women in uniform have made to try to bring peace and stability to this region."

"We had a very fruitful discussion about the NATO mission in Afghanistan and Canada's role in it. I hope it was the first of many more to come," Ignatieff said.

While Ignatieff is the party's deputy leader, Bob Rae, the former Ontario NDP premier, is the Liberals' foreign affairs critic.

With files from The Associated Press

Offline Flip

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2008, 13:44:17 »
Thanks for that kilekalder!
I'll check outside for flying pigs now.... ;D

The report says very little about the two liberals learning anything
or if Karzai thinks they have any usefull ideas.

Seems to me they get to shake hands and say the same old crap. 
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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 13:45:37 »
Why are opposition leaders meeting with foreign heads of state? 
So, there I was....

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 13:51:33 »
Why are opposition leaders meeting with foreign heads of state? 

Yeah, that's the baffling part of this.

Ignatieff taking this view doesn't surprise me- he's got about as much credibility as a pure academic can in this field; he's certainly neither naive nor ignorant on how war is waged. Dion? I couldn't give less of a damn.
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Offline Bane

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 14:02:58 »
Why are opposition leaders meeting with foreign heads of state? 

This totally normal and a non-issue.  This type of thing happens in many many countries.  For instance, during the CIA's campaign against the Soviets in the 80's, both Democratic and Republican Representatives and Senetors met with afghan warlords, Saudi and Pakistani politicians and top officals from the Saudi GDI and the Pakistani ISI.  Law makers are to be involved in the running of their country.  They can't sign deals and should be Canada's representative at offical functions but it is their duty to go.  If Harper was in opposition again, I'd expect him to be out there learning, discussing and making his views known too.

As I pointed out this article last time this came up:
The Edmonton Journal - 19th of Jul, 2005 pg. A7
WASHINGTON - Conservative Leader Stephen Harper told an international gathering of conservative political leaders Monday he would take Canada more deeply into the U.S.-led war on terrorism, and would create a national security commissioner to oversee the work of police and security agencies.
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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 14:04:09 »
Why are opposition leaders meeting with foreign heads of state? 

ONLY because the Head of State in question agreed, I would surmise...  He reads the papers, and he knows how the debate is unfolding here.

MUST he meet with these guys?  No.  SHOULD (politically speaking) he meet with these guys?  Makes sense....

Still, I hope people reading the accounts realize that the (Un)Dynamic Duo do NOT speak for Canada - I'm sure Pres. Karzai does...
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Offline Tow Tripod

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 14:46:31 »
Can somebody tell me what a balanced mission means!?!?!?!? I don't get this terminology at all other than it sounds very Jack Laytonish. Thanks

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 15:02:23 »
Stephane who?

Seriously, who is this guy?  I love that Ignatieff went too - since his plan I think is to allow Dion to keep embarrassing the party until he can take over.

I often get the feeling that Dion wishes to prove that he can in fact suck and blow at the same time.  And while opposition leaders meeting foreign heads of state isn't totally out of the ordinary, I do enjoy the fact that it seems as though certain Liberals believe they should act as though they're a government in waiting until this little anomaly (in their mind) passes.  Dion showing up in Bali is a prime example of this.  I don't recall Harper or Day going to foreign summits etc as though they represent the Canadian public quite in the way it seemed the Dion did.
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Offline Flip

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2008, 15:05:41 »
Can somebody tell me what a balanced mission means!?!?!?!? I don't get this terminology at all other than it sounds very Jack Laytonish. Thanks

Tow Tripod

"Balanced mission" means; the mission the CF finds itself in when they run the government. ;D

Or to put it another way, A balanced mission is a political device that uses the CF
to make Iggy and Dion look really good.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 15:08:21 by Flip »
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Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2008, 16:56:20 »
Any money that on one of the first days of debate once thn house open, Dion will stand up and state, "Mr Speaker, now I have been to Afghanistan and seen what goes on there....."

Bets on whether or not he goes down south and visits anything? More than the PRT and KAF that is?
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2008, 17:32:59 »
Well if our current "3D" (Defence, Development, Diplomacy) mission is not balanced, perhaps they could descend from the heavens and give us their definition of what a "Balanced Mission" is?
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Flip

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2008, 18:18:25 »
Well if our current "3D" (Defence, Development, Diplomacy) mission is not balanced, perhaps they could descend from the heavens and give us their definition of what a "Balanced Mission" is?
Descend from the heavens in what, a SeaKing or a hot air balloon? ;D
Sorry cheap shot, I know...
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Offline FascistLibertarian

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2008, 18:48:36 »
Quote
Dion and Ignatieff said they agreed with Karzai on the use of air and artillery strikes as weapons in the counter-insurgency fight.

The use of such firepower is being blamed for civilian deaths.

So by pulling more troops away from the front lines NATO will somehow end up using less air and artillery?
Because clearly the answer to less air and artillery isnt more boots on the ground, its less!  ::)
wow, just wow.

Offline stegner

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2008, 19:03:42 »
What Dion wants is more Development and Diplomacy in the 3-D Policy (implemented by the Liberals by the way) that is what he means by making the mission more balanced.  The vast majority of Canadian funds is going to the defence aspect.

Offline Scotty884

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2008, 19:09:50 »
"Sir I spotted Mr. Dion in the open....." said a Tech,  "SO?" answers the FOO,  " He wants less air raids and arty calls" replies the tech,  "F#$% that! 3, this is 39 FM BTY!!!" ahhhh one can only wish..... ;D ;D ;D :threat:
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2008, 19:14:05 »
What Dion wants is more Development and Diplomacy in the 3-D Policy (implemented by the Liberals by the way) that is what he means by making the mission more balanced.  The vast majority of Canadian funds is going to the defence aspect.

After reviewing many of your comments, I have come to the conclusion that you really don't have a firm grasp on any of these subjects.  Surely, in all the reading you must have done to come to some of these discusions, you must have read that there can be "NO SAFE" Development, nor Diplomacy without there having first been a Defence aspect to remove any and all THREATS?  You are making statements like a person studying Canadian and world history and politics in Grade Eight.  In other words, you seem to be very ill-informed.
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Offline FascistLibertarian

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2008, 19:25:32 »
I like this quote by him

Quote
Are soldiers qualified to make strategic assessments-when their training deals exclusively with tactical matters?

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2008, 19:28:52 »
Quote
What Dion wants is more Development and Diplomacy in the 3-D Policy (implemented by the Liberals by the way) that is what he means by making the mission more balanced.  The vast majority of Canadian funds is going to the defence aspect.

Fine.  We will build more Schools, medical clinics, wells and housing...but we won't lift a finger to stop anyone from blowing them up, burning them down or otherwise terrorising the locals.  Sound more "balanced" to you?  In your "balanced" mission, does the CF even get to defend itself while doing all of this development?

As for more diplomacy- who, PRECISELY, do you think we should be negotiating with?  Keep in mind, Afghanistan is a sovereign nation with its own (very) complex internal politics.  The Afghan government might be a tad offended if we "diplomacy" the wrong people.

Frankly, Stegner, your grasp this subject appears weak at best.  Go do some reading.

Offline stegner

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2008, 19:33:34 »
Mr. Wallace,

Thanks for your comments.  Though I am quite curious about them.  I was merely restating Dion's position as on an ealier post someone was asking what did Dion mean with the more balanced approach.  I never submitted anything else.   So kindly defer from your personal attack, as I never said that defence was not an important part.   As you have alluded, defence is required to reduce the threat, as there can be no aid workers without security.  However, there are no aid workers from CIDA or Foreign Affairs in great numbers, because they would not have protection.   From my analysis, what Dion has suggested, is that Canada should take a slight break from overall defence in Khandahar and focus on development though the CF will still need to provide security  to CIDA and the like as he feels with this policy the Aghani society can be rebuilt more quickly.  That is his opinion not mine. 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 19:39:13 by stegner »

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2008, 19:44:18 »
..........  That is his opinion not mine. 

I must say, in my defence, that your posting style does not indicate that.   You are posting as if it is your opinion, and that it is in line with his. 
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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2008, 19:45:35 »
From my analysis, what Dion is suggested, is that Canada should take a slight break from defence and focus on development though the CF will still need to provide security  to CIDA and the like as he feels with this policy the Aghani society can be rebuilt more quickly.  That is his opinion not mine. 

Poppycock!*  

First of all are you privy to Liberal Cabinet meetings?  Secondly would you care to show us all exactly where you get that impression ie. please show sources where he states that position.

Dion and his party want us to pull out of the warfighting completely and have said that it is time for our other NATO partners to step up.  This in spite of the fact that for the better part of 30 years Canada has been doing far less than its share in the alliance.  The Liberals, Bloc and NDP are bed-buddies on this issue only the current government sees the security and moral issues at stake.

To dismiss the defence piece of the tripod is to reneg on our responsibility to protect.  WE have to do it if no one else will.  We can not abdicate our responsibility to the vast majority of Afghanis who want and need the security and stability that armed soldiers in the streets of K'har provide.

* - what I realy want to write will just be "*****"ed anyway
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Offline stegner

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2008, 19:56:54 »
Reccesoldier,  you are calling the kettle black and should follow your own advice as you are not privy to Liberal caucus meetings, cabinets meeting are only for cabinet ministers and they are usually part of the government.  Okay despite my assertions that I do not agree with Dion people still think I do.   I am a believer in the Powell Doctrine.  Thus, I think in order to win in Afganistan we need more troops-think a surge.  That is all I have to say on that.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2008, 20:00:25 »
As for Mr Ignatieff:

Mickey I. and the drug of ambition
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/010630.html

Stegner: Canada has no more troops with which to surge; however the USMC will be doing its bit:
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=205484&Sn=WORL&IssueID=30297

Mark
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Offline FascistLibertarian

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2008, 20:02:43 »
Clearly we need more troops! I think everyone here agree's that the NATO A-Stan mission is under staffed.
What Dion wants is less troops on the front lines, which will lead to more deaths from air and art.

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Re: Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2008, 20:26:46 »
And what do the Tories have to say about the (Un)Dynamic Duo's visit?

WELCOME TO AFGHANISTAN, STÉPHANE DION
Conservative Party of Canada news release, January 12, 2008
News release link - .pdf permalink

More than a year after becoming Liberal leader, Stéphane Dion has finally found Afghanistan on the map.

And once he’s done explaining to the Afghan people why, before actually stepping foot in their country, he dismissed Canadian efforts to help bring stability and democracy to their lives, Dion should set aside partisan self-interest for a moment and open his eyes to the progress that’s being made on the ground.

Never one to let facts get in the way of a political opportunity, Dion offended Canadians and Afghans, alike, last week – insisting that Canada should immediately notify NATO it will abandon its mission in Afghanistan, and arguing it would be a “travesty” if the mission continued beyond February, 2009.

The real travesty is Dion’s chronic rush to judgment in pursuit of partisan goals.

He did it in vowing to defeat the Government’s last Budget long before he read it. He did it in rejecting the Government’s Speech from the Throne long before he heard it.

And he’s done it repeatedly in criticizing Canada’s role in Afghanistan, long before ever bothering to visit our troops and development workers, or considering the positive changes they are making.

Because of the efforts and sacrifices of brave Canadian men and women, the people of Afghanistan have seen the institution of democratic elections, the stirring of human rights and freedoms for women, the construction of schools, healthcare facilities and the basic infrastructure of a functional economy.

While he’s in Afghanistan, the Liberal leader might want to explore the Aschiana School in Kabul, where Canada is partnering to ensure that children who, because of war, tragedy and chaos, were left out of the school system, are now getting an education.

He might want to speak to Canadians who are assisting with vaccination programs, reaching nearly 200,000 children and women in this country. Or with those who are working with Afghans on more than 27,000 reconstruction projects now underway, including clean water, sanitation and electrical power.

Or he might want to listen to some of Canada’s esteemed men and women in uniform, who are creating the kind of stability and peace that make all of this possible.

And he may want to ask Afghans and aid workers if such progress would have been possible without the security operation?

Prime Minister Harper has appointed former Liberal Deputy Prime Minister John Manley to lead a panel of eminent Canadians who will, in the coming weeks, make informed recommendations to the Government on Canada’s path forward in Afghanistan.

By subverting that critical process in pursuit of political gain, Stéphane Dion not only diminishes the hope of Afghans but the dedication and sacrifice of Canada’s finest.


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