Author Topic: F-22 or F-35  (Read 74561 times)

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Offline civvy

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F-22 or F-35
« on: November 29, 2007, 21:26:28 »
Would the Raptor be a better choice then the lightning for Canada? There both very capable aircraft, but what would Canada benefit most from? What are the pros and cons of each aircraft? Topic is to debate what Canada should buy to replace the Hornet.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2007, 21:28:01 »
The Raptor is an air superiority fighter, but like the F-15 may morph into a strike fighter but the F-35 is primarily a strike aircraft so they really fill seperate roles.

Offline DirtyDog

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2007, 21:48:04 »
Errrrrr..... I don't know what to say.

where do you start?

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2007, 22:13:28 »
On the topic of F22s & CAS:

Quote
F-22 Prepped For CAS

October 1, 2007: The U.S. Air Force is getting its new F-22 stealth  fighter ready for service in Iraq and Afghanistan, even though air force generals insist this is not likely to happen. Last month, an F-22  successfully dropped its first SDB (small diameter bomb). This is a  completely new smart bomb design, weighing only 250 pound (PHOTO). This weapon  has a shape that?s more like that of a missile than a bomb (70 inches  long, 190 millimeters in diameter), with the guidance system built in.

The smaller blast from the SDB is still pretty substantial (51 pounds  of explosives). A new SDB design has a Focused Lethality Munition  (FLM) warhead, which reduces the number of metal fragments created  when the bomb explodes, and increases the blast effect. This is meant  to reduce casualties to nearby civilians.

An F-22 can carry eight SDBs in its internal bomb bays, in addition to  four air-to-air missiles. But why send F-22 into Iraq and Afghanistan?  There are several reasons. One is combat experience. OK, there are  plenty of A-10s, F-16s and F-18s available to drop smart bombs, so why  use an F-22? Because the F-22 has not been in a combat zone yet, and  you need to see how the aircraft reacts to the stresses and conditions  only found in a combat zone. But there are other reasons as well. Iraq  is right next to Syria and Iran, two countries with lots of Russian  air defense radars that F-22s can play with. Afghanistan also has Iran  as a neighbor, as well as a small border with China. Letting those  countries get a look at the F-22 also has some psychological impact.

Moreover, lacking an air-to-air opponent, dropping smart bombs for ground troops might be the only work F-22s will get for a while. This  CAS (Close Air Support) mission is all the air force has been doing  for the past four years. Might as well get the F-22 in shape for it.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20071001.aspx
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aesop081

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 22:16:04 »
Current US policy is that it will not export the F-22

I guess that part of your debate is closed for now.


Braveheart......

Read this first :


http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,44917.0.html

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2007, 22:34:34 »
All it takes is money. ;D

aesop081

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2007, 22:37:45 »
All it takes is money. ;D

or a vivid imagination....... ::)

Offline DirtyDog

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2007, 22:38:11 »
All it takes is money. ;D
It'll take more then money for us to get our hands on a Raptor.

Perhaps if you get another Clinton in office.... but then of course, the Chinese will have first dibs.

niceasdrhuxtable

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2007, 22:50:41 »
Let's not forget that F-22s are running at about $200M a piece right now. Even with the recent favorable trend in exchange rates I could hardly see Canada committing that kind of money for anything to do with combat.

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2007, 23:02:06 »
Let's not forget that F-22s are running at about $200M a piece right now.

Source?
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Offline ringo

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 00:57:25 »
If Raptors were dedicated to NORAD Canada would have as good a chance to acquire the aircraft as any US ally, I'd like to see a split buy of F-22's and F-35B STOVL to replace CF-18's  but it's unlikely to happen.

aesop081

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 00:59:24 »
If Raptors were dedicated to NORAD Canada would have as good a chance to acquire the aircraft as any US ally,

Indeed we have as good a chance as any US ally  ;D

 ......they wont export it to anyone.

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 07:27:53 »
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-cost.htm
That is rather misleading as it rolls all of the fixed R&D cost into the reduced order (which is starting to look like it will be increased with the grounding of the F15s): unit cost is more like <$100MM.
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 07:40:04 »
Indeed we have as good a chance as any US ally  ;D

 ......they wont export it to anyone.

There has been some discussion of the Japanese acquiring a (less capable) export version ... but as I think you are suggesting, it has more to do with politics than anything else.

Quote
A Lockheed Martin official heavily involved in the Raptor program told ITAF Feb. 14 that a proposal to alter course and sell the Raptor to Japan is working its way through the Air Force. Lockheed is leading development and production work on the service's newest fighter. ... Air Combat Command chief Gen. Ronald Keys told ITAF Feb. 2 after his remarks at a conference in Lake Buena Vista, FL, that service officials are debating the notion of putting the F-22A on the international market.

...

“It's hard to envision the F-22A with its current capabilities being exported, even to our closest allies. Its capabilities would almost certainly have to be ‘watered down' for export,” according to Christopher Bolkcom, an analyst at the Congressional Research Service in Washington.
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,88282,00.html

IMHO, the only chance you'll see a CF pilot in an F22 is on exchange (and even that is a maybe).
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Offline peaches

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 08:01:07 »
We are only one election away from becoming the USA advisary, so NO, they will not sell us F22's.  The F35 is for the export market, and at $40 million each we may see 100.
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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2007, 08:19:18 »
We are only one election away from becoming the USA advisary, so NO, they will not sell us F22's.  The F35 is for the export market, and at $40 million each we may see 100.

If Hillier is CDS I am not sure he would envision his military, small smart, with such a high number of expensive aircraft.

Offline peaches

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2007, 08:56:09 »
100 is not a high number, 1000 is!!  We have seen that 80 CF18s is not enough, we are having trouble sustaining a NORAD & CAS commitment with only 80 jets, keeping in mind a larger number of them belong to the tarining squadron and are not avail for ops.  If we decided with the F-35 to do all our OT training in the USA, and made 410 another Ops squadron, then yes, 80 jets would do.....
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Offline prom

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2007, 17:27:50 »
We are only one election away from becoming the USA advisary, so NO, they will not sell us F22's.  The F35 is for the export market, and at $40 million each we may see 100.

source?

In my searching I have found $37 million as the inital projected unt cost. Real cost as of 2005 had driven the projected cost to $100 million per unit.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-35-program.htm


Just to note on the F-22 its per unit cost is falling like a rock and is exected to be below $75 million by the time #100 is produced and continue to fall after that point.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/march2003/0303FA22.asp

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2007, 18:09:07 »
is exected to be below $75 million by the time #100 is produced

That article is 4 1/2 years old: #100 has already been delivered ... unit cost is $97MM, per the globalsecurity link below.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2007, 21:11:37 »
While the US has stated that it wont export the F-22, it may be the only way to keep the production line going and possibly bring down aircraft cost. The cost of the aircraft is probably the biggest limitation to most potential buyers. Anyway I found that allied pilots have trained to fly the B-2,F-117 and F-22.

Quote
In July, RAF Flight Lt. Dan Robinson completed flight training in the F-22A Raptor at Tyndall AFB, Fla., with the 43rd Fighter Squadron. As the first allied pilot to train on the fifth generation fighter, Robinson is now serving a three-year tour at Langley AFB, Va., with the 27th Fighter Squadron.

British pilots have been assigned to F-117 Nighthawk squadrons almost since that aircraft became operational in the early 1980s.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2007, 21:27:18 »
I have no inside knowledge of course, but I wouldn't just bet the whole farm that the US won't someday export F-22s, especially if it keeps the line production lines open and allows the USAF to to buy more airframes at a slightly cheaper cost.  The Israelis and Japanese have both expressed interest- I would bet on the Japanese having the best chance.

I'm not sure if they were offered to us, if it would make sense to buy some.  I could see that case for a couple of dozen to be operated in a NORAD context, with another fighter type being purchased for expeditionary work, especially if we did not insist on any mods or that we conduct any OTU activity in Canada.  My back of the cigarette pack figuring puts the cost of 24 F-22s at around $8 billion Cdn.

IMHO, 80 F-35s are going to cost around $17 Billion anyway, if we go that route.

Pile that ontop of all of warships needing replacement between 2010 and 2020, along with buying Chinooks, C-130Js, FWSAR, UAVs, Aurora replacements...that is a crapload of cash.  Will the Canadian public stand for it?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 21:39:08 by SeaKingTacco »

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2007, 21:36:24 »
Pile that ontop of all of warships needing replacement between 2010 and 2020, along with buying Chinooks, C-130Js, FWSAR, UAVs, Aurora replacements...that is a crapload of cash.  Will the Canadian public stand for it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8gNz8F2j6U
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2007, 22:26:27 »
Quote
In April 2007, the Pentagon revealed that the total cost of the JSF had increased to $299.8 billion for 2,458 aircraft, or $121.97 million per aircraft. This is far in excess of the prices mentioned by Lockheed Martin, the program’s prime contractor, which are generally in the $60-$70 million range...
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.31267251.1196177158.spoIl38AAAEAAFQjW3oAAAAS&manuel_call_cat=5&manuel_call_prod=88477&manuel_call_mod=feature&modele=jdc_inter
 
The story is about a less-capable version for foreigners to get around US arms export regulations.

More on Canada and the F-35 here:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/06/canada-and-f-35-non-story.html

Meanwhile Australia is already buying  24 F/A-18Fs regardless of their F-35 decision: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/australia-to-buy-24-super-hornets-as-interim-gapfiller-to-jsf-02898/

Mark
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« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 22:33:29 by MarkOttawa »
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Offline Ali G

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Re: F-22 or F-35
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2007, 03:43:57 »
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.31267251.1196177158.spoIl38AAAEAAFQjW3oAAAAS&manuel_call_cat=5&manuel_call_prod=88477&manuel_call_mod=feature&modele=jdc_inter
 
The story is about a less-capable version for foreigners to get around US arms export regulations.

Well, understandably, the US couldn't just give their hard-earned stealth technology away like that. I guess national security comes before foreign relations.
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