Author Topic: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT  (Read 308224 times)

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Offline FormerHorseGuard

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cost of the new tanks
« Reply #375 on: November 18, 2007, 15:24:57 »
 hoping no one uses me for using a copy  writed story here, but ithought it was an interesting read
I am glad some people put their necks on the line to get them for the troops.




November 18, 2007

Army faced bureaucratic battle to get tank purchase approved

By Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS

 

A Leopard 2 Tank in Afghanistan. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Bill Graveland/file
OTTAWA - The decision to borrow 20 Leopard A6M battle tanks from the Germans and purchase 100 slightly-used models from the Dutch was a hotly debated and ultimately last-minute decision for the Conservative government and Canada's Defence Department.

The debate was so intense it almost cost the army its most senior commander, political and defence sources say.

Records released under access to information laws also show that the army was conducting research tests as late as last February on its Leopard C1s to determine whether the older tanks could withstand the rigours of duty in Afghanistan.

The results of those tests - showing the old tanks were not suited for the searing Afghan summer - touched off an intense debate within National Defence and the wider bureaucracy.

Although contingency plans were prepared, former defence minister Gordon O'Connor faced push-back, particularly in the Privy Council Office which was deeply skeptical about replacing the army's inventory of antique Leopards with newer Dutch models, said the defence sources.

No one questioned the need to borrow up to 20 modern, mine-resistant battle tanks from Germany for the current mission in Kandahar, said the sources.

 
 
"It was clear that lives were being saved by their presence in theatre," said an official who asked not to be named.

But the debate over the purchase of the other tanks dragged on throughout last March and prompted the head of the army Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, to put to his job on the line, demanding that it go through.

The debate was ultimately silenced when O'Connor put his foot down and rammed the entire package, which is now estimated at $1.3 billion, through cabinet in early April.

In a recent interview with The Canadian Press, Leslie was asked about the battle to get the purchase approved.

"I can't answer any of the specifics because that's cabinet confidentiality; advice that I and others gave to the minister must remain between he and I because that's part of the bond of trust that exists," he said.

"In terms of debate there is always debate within this building because the pool of gold is not infinite. If you spend money on A you can't spend money on B.

"There was a vigourous debate with all of the right questions being asked by a bunch of folk around town."

But one defence expert said that, after the deaths of more than 70 soldiers in Afghanistan, he can't understand why such a basic requirement for a modern army resulted in such a heated debate.

"I think we still live with that myth of Canada, the peacekeeper," said Alain Pellerin, executive director the Conference of Defence Associations.

"The government in the 1990s sort of fed that myth because they didn't want to spend money on defence. We've been in conflict situations since Bosnia and there are some people - bureaucrats - who don't recognize it."

Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier, who at one point described the military's older Leopard tanks as a "millstone around the neck of the Canadian Forces" and favoured the introduction of a light, mobile gun system, said the war in Afghanistan should have changed a lot of minds.

"The combat situation and environment our soldiers faced during Operation Medusa in September 2006 made it abundantly clear to us that the platforms such as the Mobile Gun System could simply not yet do what we need them to be able to do," Hillier said in an e-mail statement.

"The mission in Afghanistan has demonstrated the on-going requirement for tanks in the Canadian Forces so that we are ready to carry out whatever task our government asks of us. Tanks are saving lives in Afghanistan, and will in future missions. Minister O'Connor and I were of one mind, both on the lease of the tanks for immediate use in theatre, and on the purchase."

The $650 million purchase and borrowing scheme was approved and announced on April 12, even before a cost estimate on a long-term support contract was finalized.

That crucial bit of number-crunching eventually added another $650 million to the program cost - and became public only when O'Connor was questioned over his department budget in the Commons.

The German were initially going to charge Canada a rental fee on the tanks that are now deployed in Afghanistan, but they eventually waived it, said Leslie.

"The Germans were trying to figure out how to be generous," he added.

The government in Berlin has refused repeated NATO calls for it to send troops to southern Afghanistan to help hard-pressed Canadian, American, British and Dutch forces, but Leslie said he doesn't believe the Germans were trying to make amends with the loan.

"They're good friends," he said.

Guilt about not being willing to send troops into combat "was not at the forefront of their thinking. It didn't resonate well with anybody that they would be charging money to have these fine machines."



 

Offline Rayman

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Re: cost of the new tanks
« Reply #376 on: November 18, 2007, 15:36:58 »
If the Germans wanted to be generous since it is around Christmas they would say "Merry Christmas" in the form of those 20 Leopard 2A6s.

One can only hope...
"Any problem caused by a tank can be solved by a tank" - Peter Griffin.

Offline MCG

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #377 on: November 18, 2007, 16:23:20 »
hoping no one uses me for using a copy  writed story here, but i thought it was an interesting read
Where is this from?  Do you have a link to the source?

Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #378 on: November 18, 2007, 17:51:05 »
sorry  i forgot  to include the link to the news story
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/11/18/4666076-cp.html

Offline GAP

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Re: cost of the new tanks
« Reply #379 on: November 18, 2007, 18:02:25 »
If the Germans wanted to be generous since it is around Christmas they would say "Merry Christmas" in the form of those 20 Leopard 2A6s.

One can only hope...

It's not about generosity, but about credability. Someone earlier, with far more cred than me, stated that the Leopard needed field time to advance future sales. Now, that makes sense.
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Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #380 on: November 18, 2007, 18:37:37 »
No one questioned the need to borrow up to 20 modern, mine-resistant battle tanks from Germany for the current mission in Kandahar, said the sources.

 
 
"It was clear that lives were being saved by their presence in theatre," said an official who asked not to be named.

But the debate over the purchase of the other tanks dragged on throughout last March and prompted the head of the army Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, to put to his job on the line, demanding that it go through.

 
From the above article it seems fairly clear to me at least ( I've been looking at this situation for nigh on thirty years now) There are people in the Government of Canada and the Privy Council and even more disturbingly DND   who don't care how many troops they kill just so long as their ideologically based  need to prevent Tanks from being purchased is met. It dates back even farther to at least one completely cooked study just after the Arab -Israeli war of 73'. check out the name Ivan Head and the "Non -group".
 If I'm out of line  I'm sorry but over the years I've seen one decision or another based entirely on the prejudices of a few people as opposed to hard military realties .The decision to do away with tanks as part of a combined arms battle group would have cost real human beings their lives.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 20:48:07 by GK .Dundas »
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Offline Haletown

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #381 on: November 18, 2007, 19:01:20 »
brave real echelon chair warmers always know what is best for the front line troops.

The longer they delay things, the closer they get to their pension dates. 

Offline ironduke57

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #382 on: November 19, 2007, 10:11:43 »
Just read the following at MP.net:
Quote
By the way, in today´s issue of renowned german newspaper "FAZ" there is an article saying the german DoD received a "Thank you" eMail from a canadian officer. He allegedly wrote "My crew stumbled upon an IED and made history as the first [crew] to test the [Leopard 2A6]M-packet. It worked as it should."

The driver allegedly broke a hip and the crew was battered, but the author was convinced they would have fared worse in any other vehicle. The tank itself however seems to be badly damaged and is suspected to be bought instead of given back in that shape.

Anyone heared about it/has more info?

Regards,
ironduke57
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülow, 1870

Offline ironduke57

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #383 on: November 20, 2007, 11:07:02 »
Noone heared anything?

Regards,
ironduke57
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülow, 1870

Offline Haletown

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #384 on: November 20, 2007, 11:24:05 »
just this

  http://www.sfu.ca/casr/ft-vehicle-casualties-1.htm

see the brief entry for  02 Nov 2007

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #385 on: November 20, 2007, 11:43:26 »
Vehicle damage reports are not in the public domain.  If, for example, the enemy hit an LSVW, revealing the damage in a public forum may permit them to assess and adjust their techniques to enhance future attacks against LSVWs.

Basic OPSEC.
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Offline ironduke57

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #386 on: November 20, 2007, 12:27:28 »
Ah, okay. But a pic of what is left of the tank would be quite interesting. Or if the tank is repairable. What this make especially interesting is that it is probably the first serious real battle damage to an Leo2.

Regards,
ironduke57
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülow, 1870

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #387 on: November 20, 2007, 12:31:37 »
Ah, okay. But a pic of what is left of the tank would be quite interesting. Or if the tank is repairable. What this make especially interesting is that it is probably the first serious real battle damage to an Leo2.

Again, showing the enemy the effects of their handiwork would be a Bad Thing.  I'm curious about it, too... but I'd rather have our troopers home safe and sound.


If you want a nice pic of a Leo 2, take a gander at http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/netpub/server.np?find&catalog=photos&template=detail_e.np&field=itemid&op=matches&value=30711&site=combatcamera
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #388 on: November 20, 2007, 12:39:02 »
I don't think an LSVW is a good example seeing a hammer could disable that piece of crap.  Point taken mind you
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Offline MCG

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #389 on: November 20, 2007, 17:02:47 »
Ah, okay. But a pic of what is left of the tank would be quite interesting.
All pictures of battle damaged vehicles were declared SECRET on my tour.  Some get out by the media (possibly specifically approved ones) but, for the reasons above, we want to keep these pics as much under wraps as possible.

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #390 on: November 20, 2007, 17:06:58 »
Battle damage of the panzers is considered OPSEC.   Full stop.

As for the crew member, he's recovering and doing fine.

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Offline German Visitor

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #391 on: November 29, 2007, 16:54:54 »
Just read the following at MP.net:
Quote
By the way, in today´s issue of renowned german newspaper "FAZ" there is an article saying the german DoD received a "Thank you" eMail from a canadian officer. He allegedly wrote "My crew stumbled upon an IED and made history as the first [crew] to test the [Leopard 2A6]M-packet. It worked as it should."

The driver allegedly broke a hip and the crew was battered, but the author was convinced they would have fared worse in any other vehicle. The tank itself however seems to be badly damaged and is suspected to be bought instead of given back in that shape.
Anyone heared about it/has more info?

Regards,
ironduke57
Hi folks,

Maybe you are interested in the article from German Newspaper "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" (which is a serious newspaper, not a tabloid) about the blast. You need a subscription for the Newspaper to read it originally online there, but I put it in this post:
---------------
Unfreiwilliger Minentest
Kanadier dankt für deutschen Leopard-Panzer

Manchmal ist es auch freundliche, ja geradezu herzliche Post, die das Verteidigungsministerium von den Verbündeten im Afghanistan-Einsatz erhält. So etwa eine E-Mail, die mit dem Betreff "Thanks" kürzlich einging. Sie kam von einem kanadischen Offizier, der, wie er schrieb, sich für den neuen Panzer bedanken wollte, der nämlich neulich nachts sein Leben und das seiner Mannschaft gerettet habe. Es geht um einen Satz Leopard-2-Kampfpanzer, den die Bundeswehr an die Kanadier für den Afghanistan-Einsatz abgegeben hat - leihweise sozusagen. Dazu wurden die 20 "Leos" für die Einsatzerfordernisse umgerüstet, unter anderem durch zusätzlichen Minenschutz, weswegen die Typenbezeichnung 2A6 mit einem "M" ergänzt wurde. "Meine Crew stieß auf ein IED (Sprengfalle) und ging in die Geschichte als die erste ein, die das? ,M'-Paket getestet hat", schrieb nun der Kanadier. "Es funktionierte so, wie es sollte." Zwar habe sich der Fahrer die Hüfte gebrochen und den anderen hätten die Ohren gehörig geklingelt, doch wäre man in einem anderen Fahrzeug weit weniger gut weggekommen, meint der Kanadier und scherzt: "Ich weiß, dass dieser Schlag wohl ein bisschen mehr Arbeit auf Ihren Schreibtisch bringen wird, denn ich glaube nicht, dass der Schaden vom Mietvertrag abgedeckt ist. Dieses Exemplar haben wir wohl gekauft." 2009 sind die Panzer "wie übergeben" an Deutschland zurückzugeben. Es muss sich aber nicht um dieselben Panzer handeln. Es gehört nicht viel Phantasie dazu, sich diese oder entsprechende Exemplare auch bald mit dem eisernen Kreuz im Auslandseinsatz vorzustellen. (löw.)


Text: F.A.Z., 19.11.2007, Nr. 269 / Seite 8
---------------
You can also find the article for free at http://www.sondereinheiten.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14684&start=60 (a forum for German military personal).

For the not-German-speaking: The translation on MP is basically a correct summary of the email. The officer also says that the vehicle saved his life and that of his crew and he gives his thanks for that.

Personally, I think the CF really opposes the taliban thread in Afghanistan and the German Bundeswehr sits in its camps in Kunduz and Masar-I-sharif and is not allowed go out and therefore does nothing, with the exeption of giving those 20 tanks to Canada: So maybe at least you can use our equipment. :'(


Kind Regards,
a German Vistor of your site
(from Hamburg, Germany)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 17:18:05 by German Visitor »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #392 on: November 29, 2007, 18:38:29 »
And if you wonder how Google would translate that text,

Quote
Canadians thanked for the German Leopard tanks

Sometimes it is friendly, if not cordial Post, the Defense Ministry by the allies in Afghanistan-use. How about an e-mail with the subject "Thanks" recently received. She came from a Canadian officer who, as he wrote, for the new tanks would want, namely his life recently at night and his team had rescued. It is a sentence Leopard-2-Kampfpanzer that the Bundeswehr to the Canadians for the use of Afghanistan - has-as it were on loan. These were the 20 "Leos" for the use of converted requirements, including through additional mine protection, which is why the model designation 2A6 with an "M" added. "My crew met with an IED (Explosive Trap), and went down in history as the first one, which?, M'-Paket tested," wrote to the Canadians. "It functioned as it should." Although the driver is the hip broken and the other had the ears belonging jingled, but it would be in another vehicle far less well weggekommen, said the Canadians and jokes: "I know that this probably beat a little more work on your desk that will bring, because I do not believe that the damage is covered by the lease. copy of this, we have probably bought. " 2009, the tanks "like hand over" to be returned to Germany. It must not act in the same tanks. There is not much imagination, or is this appropriate specimens soon with the Iron Cross abroad to be used. (Löw.)
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Offline German Visitor

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #393 on: November 30, 2007, 03:08:30 »
And if you wonder how Google would translate that text,

Not bad for a translating machine. As a human I corrected the automatic translation a bit (see below).
----------------
Involuntary Mine-Test
Canadian thanks for German Leopard tanks

Sometimes it is friendly, if not cordial Mail, that the Defense Ministry gets by the allies in the Afghanistan-mission. E.g. an e-mail with the subject "Thanks" recently received. It came from a Canadian officer who, as he wrote, wants to thank for the new tank, that recently at night had rescued his life and his team, he supposed. It is a set of Leopard-2-battle-tanks that the Bundeswehr has given to the Canadians for the use of Afghanistan - on loan, so to speak. For this matter the 20 "Leos" had been converted for the mission-requirements, including additional mine protection, which is why the model designation 2A6 has an "M" added. "My crew met with an IED (Explosive Trap), and went down in history as the first one, who tested the 'M'-package," now wrote the Canadian. "It worked as it should." Although the drivers hip is broken and the others had a buzzing in the ears, in another vehicle they would be far less well done, said the Canadian and jokes: "I know that this probably brings a little more work on your desk, as I do not believe that the damage is covered by the leasing-contract. This piece we have probably bought." 2009, the tanks have to be returned to Germany "like handed over". It may also be other (but similar) tanks. It takes is not much imagination, to see those ore similar tanks soon with the Iron Cross in foreign missions. (löw.)


Text: F.A.Z., 19.11.2007, Nr. 269 / Seite 8
--------------
Unfortunately, the original humor is "lost in translation".


PS
Maybe we should also "loan" you for free 8) also the Marder 1A5 tracked IFVs (commander, gunner, driver + 6 troops, 20 mm cannon) with comparable additional mine protection to the Leo. The Marders never left the German Kundz-base, as we don't have the nuts to use them ourselfs :-[. Greece gets 500 Marder IFVs and does not need or use them, neither.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 05:55:32 by German Visitor »

Offline Technoviking

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #394 on: November 30, 2007, 09:20:12 »
Here's my stab at the translation (with an attempt to retain the humour)

There are times when friendly, almost cordial letters are received by the German Ministry of defence from allies in the Afghanistan mission.  Such was the case in an email they recently received.  It simply had the subject line “Thanks”.  It came from a Canadian officer who wanted to thank the ministry for his new tank.  It recently saved his life, and the lives of his crew.  The tank in question was the Leopard 2, which the Bundeswehr recently delivered to the Canadians for their deployment in Afghanistan.  The 20 Leopards were specially outfitted for the mission, including added mine protection, hence the designation 2A6M. 
“My crew hit an IED and as such went down in history as the first to test the “M” variant’” wrote the Canadian.  “It worked exactly as it was supposed to.”  The driver broke his hip and the rest of the crew’s ears were ringing.  However, if the crew were in another vehicle, the result would have been much worse, suggested the officer as he joked, “I realise that this attack will certainly cause a bit more paperwork, because I don’t think that this damage is covered in the rental agreement.  I think we just bought this tank.”  The tanks are to be returned to Germany in 2009 “as rented”.  They do not, however, have to be the same tanks.  It doesn’t take much to imagine to soon see these or other tanks with the iron cross in foreign duty.



So, there I was....

Offline German Visitor

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #395 on: December 01, 2007, 05:46:55 »
Maybe you want to see the 2A6M CAN Leos in Kandahar and hear what the tankers say. The ZDF report (Title: "Battlefield instead of road works: The lonely fight of the Canadians in Kandahar.") about the Canadian forces in Afghanistan is in German, but has Leo-2 footage and english-speaking interviews with the tankers about their experience with the new tank (from 0:50 to 3:20 within the 5:47 clip).
At youtube :
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8bpteWCajEo&feature=related
Original (for me a bit cumbersome to view):
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/content/359838?inPopup=true
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 05:55:18 by German Visitor »

Offline TN2IC

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #396 on: December 01, 2007, 20:13:28 »



PS
Maybe we should also "loan" you for free 8) also the Marder 1A5 tracked IFVs (commander, gunner, driver + 6 troops, 20 mm cannon) with comparable additional mine protection to the Leo. The Marders never left the German Kundz-base, as we don't have the nuts to use them ourselfs :-[. Greece gets 500 Marder IFVs and does not need or use them, neither.

I'm starting to like you. Next time I'm in Germany, I"ll look you up.  ;)

Offline German Visitor

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #397 on: December 03, 2007, 05:55:03 »
I'm starting to like you. Next time I'm in Germany, I"ll look you up.  ;)
After Schultz enters Barracks 2 and see the prisoners trying to pull apart up a wall:
    * Hogan: How else would we get the tank in?
    * Schultz: Tank? Tank? Tank? Tank? Tank? Tank?
 :)

Offline ironduke57

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #398 on: December 03, 2007, 07:21:56 »
... Greece gets 500 Marder IFVs and does not need or use them, neither.
Sorry, but this is wrong. The Marders have already been offered to Greece twice, either by Rheinmetall or directly by the German state. The initial proposal by Rheinmetall was to fit the Marders with the new E4 turret before selling them to Greece; that was regarded as too expensive. Then there was an initial deal between Greece and Germany (I think Rheinmetall wasn't involved) to buy 415 Marders (1A3) for 250 million Euros without major modifications except radios etc. That deal was almost
completed, but the Greek MoD changed its mind at the last moment, opting for a tender for new generation AIFVs. ATM there is a third offer to the Greece directly by Rheinmetall to lease 164 Marder 1A3. (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3171231&C=landwar)

Regards,
ironduke57
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Offline geo

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Re: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT
« Reply #399 on: December 03, 2007, 09:24:31 »
LOL Duke, LOL

Not a problem
Chimo!