Author Topic: The CV90 Fan Page  (Read 174526 times)

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Offline TCBF

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2005, 21:14:45 »
"as long as a long recoil system is incorporated,"

Yeah, it's called a TRAILER.   Heh-heh.

 ;D

Man, I love those smileys.   Think I'll pop another one.

 ;D

Tom

 ;D

Oooops.
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2005, 22:24:39 »
TCBG,

Lol.  A trailer would also help with carrying crew kit!  As an aside I was in a Leopard Sqn that went to Ft Hood on a SUE and trained on the M1A1s.  The Leo to M1 shift is certainly do-able.

All,

It looks like the CV90120-T will be able to move and hit like a heavy MBT.  Its 120mm should be able to easily handle the standard threat armour that we worry about (T55s, T62s and T72s).  I can't see it taking a 100m hit and surviving, however, and RPGs will also be a threat.  What would the role of the CV90120-T be?  Perhaps as a "Cavalry tank" but why not just go with M1A2s or Leo IIs?  The cost will probably be the same.  I guess this concept has been beaten to death on other threads but I wanted to raise it here.  It would certainly fit the bill for a rapid deployment force where certain risks are taken in the name of getting there fast.

I'd certainly be interested in the CV90120-T (we need a new name) but we would need to have a close look at where it would fit into our force (which we probably should have done with the Leopard C2).

Cheers,

2B
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline PatrickO

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2005, 23:21:19 »
yeah, i think the standard armour package leaves out a lot, but it's definately better than LAV-III armour in terms of thickness and slope. (Casr says LAV-III hull armour is 1/2" steel) I know there's an up-armoured model of the CV-90-40 the Swedish army uses, designed to protect against landmines and such. i'm pretty sure there will be an aftermarket ERA applique kit or two in the near future. modern ERA can do quite a bit.. the Casr article on lightweight armour had a link to a page talking about Russian heavy ERA (Kontakt-5) which apparently can defeat APFSDS ammunition :o

http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/index.html

(you have to scroll down to the bottom)
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2005, 23:53:22 »
Perhaps we need a separate thread for Russian arms and armour claims. 

Going back to the CV90, I don't think that ERA is going to make a CV90 (or any other light vehicle) able to take a hit from a tank gun in the near future. 

2B 
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2005, 00:57:24 »
In the early 1980s, the DOD, rattled by qualitative improvements in Russian military systems began a program to create the "Block III" tank. Fortunately, it was a paper vehicle, with the armoured envelope and 140mm cannon estimated to push the weight into the 80,000kg mark, far beyond what most roads and bridges could handle. This is hardly a new conceit, at the end of WW II all armies were rushing very massive vehicles into production (JS III, T-10, Conquerer), and the Germans had the Maus and E-100, both of which weighed an astonishing 100 tonnes!

Cooler heads prevailed, and the mainstream of tank development from Generation One onwards has been to balance mobility protection and firepower as much as possible.

The CV 90 family strikes me as an excellent compromise between the tactical factors and the need for operational and strategic mobility. Just as an 80,000kg "Block III" is of marginal utility if it can't be shipped from Ft Hood, TX, nations with limited strategic transport (i.e. us) can't afford to max out the transport carrying one type of vehicle. The first wave of tanks will look impressive, but without the supporting Infantry, Artillery, Air, electronics etc. they won't last too long. Similarly, if the Tanks cannot be transported, then the rest of the force  will not be very happy.

The CV 90 is really part of the bigger picture. Even our LAV III force is pretty ineffective sitting in warehouses in Montreal or Wainwright...perhaps we need to pay more attention to the force projection side of the equation, and remember lighter vehicles such as the CV 90 or LAV III are easier to transport both to a theater of operation, as well as around inside the theater of operation. Until we get that far (or are expecting the Chinese to invade Wainwright), then arguments about levels of protection are somewhat moot.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2005, 07:28:57 »
My concern about armour protection is aimed at the CV90120-T since it appears to have been designed with fighting tanks in mind.  I agree that the weight of the M1A1/2 is about as heavy as we can practically get, but I also think that it needs to be that heavy if it is to be used for "heavy duty."  I truly believe that the armour protection offered by the M1A2, Leopard II (any mark) and Challenger II is the West's key technological advantage over potential adversaries.  Without that armour protection we would probably still win but our casualties would be much higher.  Perhaps the weight of the M1A2 is just the "cost of doing business."  You are right, however, that our tanks are not much good if we can't get them to the fight and this must be remembered in these discusions.

I do like the look of the CV90120-T on paper and I think that it could be a good fit for our Army.  It might still have some of the strategic mobility limitations of the Leopard C2 (both in terms of weight and image) but it would bring some "manouevre" to the force (a blend of firepower and mobility).  It could try to act as a "Cavalry tank."  I'm interested to see how the CV90120-T will be employed.  It would be a good vehicle to have in ISAF or any theatre were air is the only practical way to get armour in.

Cheers,

2B

Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline Matt_Fisher

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2005, 11:18:46 »
Having just gotten back from Battle Griffin '05 in Norway, I must say that I was extremely impressed with the Norwegians CV9030.

Once again, the wheeled LAV force was shown how much superior mobility tracks have over wheels.

We had extreme problems anytime we went off-road in terms of getting stuck in the snow, whereas the Norgie CVs blazed past us with no difficulty.

I do think that a balance of wheeled and tracked forces would be most optimum, with Canada having one brigade of tracked MBTs and IFVs.  With the SEV project underway as well as FCS, I do think that a buy of CV-90s would be somewhat short sighted for the CFs though.

For an interim/stopgap tracked APC/IFV I've always thought that a decent solution is somewhat in hand through using the MTLV/M-113 'Stretch' and incorporating a Rafael remote 25mm or 30mm turret system, throwing on Soucy band tracks and some sort of applique armor package.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2005, 14:28:32 »
My concern about armour protection is aimed at the CV90120-T since it appears to have been designed with fighting tanks in mind. I agree that the weight of the M1A1/2 is about as heavy as we can practically get, but I also think that it needs to be that heavy if it is to be used for "heavy duty." I truly believe that the armour protection offered by the M1A2, Leopard II (any mark) and Challenger II is the West's key technological advantage over potential adversaries. Without that armour protection we would probably still win but our casualties would be much higher. Perhaps the weight of the M1A2 is just the "cost of doing business." You are right, however, that our tanks are not much good if we can't get them to the fight and this must be remembered in these discusions.

I do like the look of the CV90120-T on paper and I think that it could be a good fit for our Army. It might still have some of the strategic mobility limitations of the Leopard C2 (both in terms of weight and image) but it would bring some "manouevre" to the force (a blend of firepower and mobility). It could try to act as a "Cavalry tank." I'm interested to see how the CV90120-T will be employed. It would be a good vehicle to have in ISAF or any theatre were air is the only practical way to get armour in.

Cheers,

2B

I would think that the CV90129-T could work as is when combined with the sensor inputs of the Coyote, UAV or Infantry scouts. Add Through Tube Missiles like the LAHAT and doctrinal changes such as the use of Armour as cut offs in Urban Ops and the lack of armour will not be as critical (although an RPG cage is probably a must). If we add these factors, the CV 90 in a defensive position should be able to pick off many of the attaclers with missile shots and moving into rolling ambush positions before they finally get to grips with the enemy in a toe to toe slugging match. In the offense, it will be similar, the advancing forces could engage targets (with a LAHAT and some sort of forward observation capability) from 13 km, allowing the commander to shape the battlespace by fire before getting into close contact (or refusing close contact, screening the enemy by fire and bypassing the position).

Obviously, there is still a place for heavy forces, assaulting a dense defensive position or a well developed urban area would probably require Merkavas and Achzarits to make the initial lodgement and do the breakthrough, while the CV90 or LAV force waits to do the breakout and exploitation.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2005, 20:17:36 »
Matt,

Welcome back!  Tracks do give a certain advantage.  I was also suprised how quiet the CV9030 was.

AMajoor,

I guess I'm still skeptical about our ability to pick the enemy apart at extreme range with precision fires.  I'm sure it would work against an MRR attacking us, but perhaps not quite as well if we are the ones on the advance.  Still, I'd be interested to try a Cav Sqn with CV9030s, CV90120-Ts and the CV90 mortar carrier.  Perhaps a remote surveillance suite could be added to the CV9030 at the expense of two dismounts (leaving room for "scouts.")

Cheers,

2B

Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline Zipper

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2005, 20:24:18 »
All this is great. But what are the chances of them accepting the fact that track is needed? Even though we all know it is?

And I think it would great if we either upgunned the LAV's to 30mm (my preference) or downgraded the CV's to 25mm to streamline the supply system. Otherwise, it all sounds like a pleasent dream.
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Offline PatrickO

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2005, 20:42:09 »
i'm just throwing an idea out there, and it won't catch, but since there's a 40mm AA version of the CV90, could there be a redesign of that concept using our Oerlikon 35mm guns? and it wouldn't be simply an AA version, since 35mm is pretty potent stuff compared to 25mm...

but that's just my brainstorming. what do you guys think?
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2005, 18:16:43 »
Interesting for CV series
CV9030 (30mm gun)
CV9040 (40mm Gun)
120mm Gun version
recovery version
Mortar system
we have already seen the many advantages of the system.

However, there is no way we will replace the LAVIII after pumping all the money we have into it. Maybe getting on board and joining sweden in developing the SEP would a good idea? A modular vehicle in both flavors (track and wheel)? Certainly reduce Log foot print....

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2005, 12:45:08 »
Interesting for CV series
CV9030 (30mm gun)
CV9040 (40mm Gun)
120mm Gun version
recovery version
Mortar system
we have already seen the many advantages of the system.

However, there is no way we will replace the LAVIII after pumping all the money we have into it. Maybe getting on board and joining Sweden in developing the SEP would a good idea? A modular vehicle in both flavors (track and wheel)? Certainly reduce Log foot print....

Given that the CF is around 1000 vehicles "short" of LAV III variants (there seems to be some discrepancies with the figures, I have seen a requirement for 1400 LAVIII variants but other posters have quoted higher figures, perhaps including old AVGP and M-113s to be replaced as well (?)), I would see no reason not to join forces with Sweden in developing the SEV. Adding a fleet of modern "F ech" vehicles for the Reserves would bump up the numbers quite a bit more.

The common logistics factor can be increased by using the electric wheel/motor assembly as the basis for light utility vehicles, Medium logistics vehicles, "F ech" vehicles and HLVWs. Since almost all these fleets need replacing or supplementing in the near to medium term, we are looking at a program which will be building perhaps 8000 vehicles...

In one of the equipment threads, an experimental electromagnetic armour has been trialled using the on board power supply that a hybrid vehicle like the SEV brings to the table. In another thread, the utility of having a portable electric supply running off the hybrid truck was pointed out (plugging in everything from emergency lights to toasters) Farther in the future, electric power might be used for the main armament, such as electromagnetic rail guns or electro thermal cannons.

In the shorter term:
SEV-Basic:       Infantry carrier armed with an OWS, also Surveillance carrier (mast replaces section)

SEV-Support:  Wide turret ring for various armament packages such as a gun armed DFS, Recce with a 25mm + turret, Mortar carrier, Missile carrier, AA or AAA platform

SEV-Modular:   "Pickup truck" version, logistics carrier, Engineer/Pioneer versions, "Camper tops" for CP, ambulance, EW and other uses

SEV-Utility: SEV wheel/motor units and power supply applied to create various sizes of utility vehicles, ranging from 5/4 tonne "HMMVW" analogues to MLVW and HLVW replacements. If the lower hull unit is also carried over, the vehicles will be somewhat mine resistant.

Even if we only go for fairly simple SEV variants armed only with an OWS as Infantry carriers, we will still be increasing our ability to move and fight on the modern battlefield, heck, even if we build "plastic" SEVs with virtually no armour, at least we can use them to train a generation of soldiers in the use of mechanized forces.

The only "down side" = $
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Zipper

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2005, 21:06:46 »
The only "down side" = $

And possibly the fact that it has even less wheels and thus less ability to go over any rough terrain. But as a support vehicle that would not matter as much.
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2005, 06:37:21 »
"And possibly the fact that it has even less wheels and thus less ability to go over any rough terrain. But as a support vehicle that would not matter as much."

???

The SEV has tracked and wheeled variants...
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2005, 11:49:02 »
And in both variants all road wheels are driven, (so it can still run on roads if it throws a track) and both variants are capable of pivot turns.
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Offline Zipper

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2005, 23:01:32 »
The SEV has tracked and wheeled variants...

Sorry Rick. I know it has track. But I guess I am going from today's doctrine that we are not going to have track anytime soon, if ever.

And in both variants all road wheels are driven, (so it can still run on roads if it throws a track) and both variants are capable of pivot turns.

Very true as well. Which makes it even more attractive even as a wheeled vehicle. I am just going from the idea that 8 wheels beat 6 as far as any cross country is concerned. The pivot ability is the best feature though.
Nulli Secondus - Second to none

"You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread" - Heinz Gudarien

"Milli Vanilli wern't frauds, they were prophets" - Ed the Sock on modern music.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2005, 23:10:29 »
The SEV in the illustration is just a proof of concept item, there is no reason a production SEV can't have 8 wheels, or even 16 for that matter.

Given the possibility that the SEV can be a lot lighter than a current LAV with the use of hybrid drive, plastic armour and possibilities like electromagnetic armour and electrical weaponry, the ground pressure of a 6X6 SEV might actually be lower than an 8X8 LAV. Given the possibility that the CF as a whole needs about 8000 vehicles of all sorts, the Swedes would be well advised to get to work....now to find some Liberal friendly sub contractors in Canada and add a 100% mark up  ;)
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Zipper

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2005, 23:13:21 »
Then I'm all for that.

Not that that matters Sh!t anyway. ;D
Nulli Secondus - Second to none

"You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread" - Heinz Gudarien

"Milli Vanilli wern't frauds, they were prophets" - Ed the Sock on modern music.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2005, 13:28:23 »
A bit of cross threading with the Light Cavalry page, but here is a piece on uparmoured utility vehicles, which would tend to support my idea of an SEV-utility.

http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTATRIT.HTM

Quote
March 21, 2005: The U.S. Army in Iraq is faced with a dramatic growth in the number of deaths from accidents involving Humvees (â Å“hummersâ ?). Last year, some 39 soldiers died in such accidents. But the rate of accidental deaths from these accidents has doubled in the last four months. That's about five percent of all deaths. Most of the accidents involve new hummers, the ones with armor installed at the factory. The hummer was always considered a safe vehicle, because it had a low center of gravity, and it's width made is less prone to rollovers. But now there are more rollovers, and they appear to be caused by the increased weight of the armor, and the higher speeds troops use to avoid, or get away from, ambushes. Combat casualties have been falling sharply over the past three months, and part of that has to do with the high speed driving tactics adopted by troops using hummers. Such tactics have evolved over the last two years. But all that hot roding comes at the cost of more fatal accidents. The army is studying the situation, and will probably come up with new driving techniques to minimize the dangers.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Technoviking

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2005, 07:27:45 »
The CV-90 seems to be a pretty good platform.  Now, I realise that we don't have a bazillion bucks to scrap the LAV fleet, MGS, TLAV (formerly known affectionately as the "track" or "APC"), but, just imagine.  Common chassis (a la AVGP), fairly good protection, fairly light, powerful punch, flexible, etc etc.  I believe that A_Majoor has been going on about these, but they seem to be a fairly good family of vehicle, so.....

Light 'em up, boys! (and girls, of course)

:evil:
So, there I was....

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2005, 16:05:55 »
I was able to talk to some people at AUSA and see the product literature, and the CV-90 family really is "all that". In the current time frame only the German PUMA could spin off any real competition, as it is the same idea in a newer bottle. The FCS is an altogether different package, and won't be in service for many years to come (if ever).

The PUMA is ahead in protection, with uparmour packages bringing the weight to 45 tonnes (@ 50 tonnes all bombed up), and a low profile remote control turret to keep everyone head down and out of harms way. Future derivatives would share the protection and perhaps the remote turret or some variation, a PUMA-120 would be quite the piece of kit.

On the other hand, the CV-90 family is 10-20 tonnes lighter, depending on the version, and this gives the logistical advantage to the Swedes. Strategic and operational mobility will be a huge factor in future force planning, and lighter vehicles have a certain tactical advantage in areas with poorly developed infrastructure ("Cancel the left flanking, all the bridges are MCL-20").

The critical factor will be the "Grand Strategy" of the purchasers; do they want a fast moving expeditionary force which can arrive quickly and presumably before an enemy can prepare, or a heavier force which is less mobile but harder hitting? I have my reservations about AFVs in the 70 tonne range, but the 30-50 tonne AFV family is a good sandbox to play in.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Matt_Fisher

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2005, 23:58:08 »
As a bit of an expansion on a_majoor's discussion on the CV90, it should be noted that Hagglunds/BAE system's SEV program is being developed to complement rather than replace the CV90 and Leopard 2 in Swedish service.

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2005, 10:59:06 »

On the other hand, the CV-90 family is 10-20 tonnes lighter, depending on the version, and this gives the logistical advantage to the Swedes. Strategic and operational mobility will be a huge factor in future force planning, and lighter vehicles have a certain tactical advantage in areas with poorly developed infrastructure ("Cancel the left flanking, all the bridges are MCL-20").

"Cancel that, deploy the AVLB, left flanking"
So, there I was....

Offline granQ

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2006, 10:09:58 »

My view on things.

Cv90 is great, and all.  But you really need the 9040 Ceasar (charlie version) that has addon armor. 9040 is the 40 mm version gun. We refer to them as 9040, 9035 (export nato 35mm). See you use alittle bit diffrent names. (Then its not so light weight anymore).

The cv90 was made with one goal in my


Anyway, if you can wait little you really should buy the SEP/SEV.

Works like this, you build a number of ambulance, troopcarrier, mortar whatever need you have.

Then you have like a few tracks and a few wheels ones, switching between tracks and wheels takes roughly 30 min, with the use of a crane.

So basicly you could have a driver, taking the SEP and driving supplies to a village in kosovo with wheels then goes back to base, switch to tracks and head out again but thru the forest to a checkpoint somewhere. Ofcourse the mechanics wont be too happy to switch between tracks or wheels but thats another problem.

How is the general view on this in sweden?

Well, officialy its a new APC, IFV whatever you want but it will have pretty bad protection, again i think there will come a "charlie" version just for real duty, but probaly it will be used on peace keeping and replacing stuff today is more or less "soft skin".