Author Topic: Rules and Problems  (Read 24336 times)

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Offline Bomber

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Rules and Problems
« on: January 20, 2005, 08:35:05 »
How do other people deal with their charge bags?

There was once a style of folding up an empty box and using that to stuff them into till it was TSM fire time.  BUT, in Pet we have been told that this is a safety violation, and now there is a smashed piece of cardboard sitting on the ground and I just toss them on top of the tannoy, fire, and tip the bags onto the cardboard.

Burn Kits?

Does anyone know of a person that might have been injured to get these things into service?  Is this some kind of a corrective measure, a preventative measure, or did people just freak seeing someone put a match to DG?

Plastic Ammo Tubes?

How do you deal with these?  I asked the display guys from Spectre to show me how they opened them at the last military products show CANSEC 04 in Ottawa last year.  They started off by telling me about the atmosphere and pressure and O rings.  I just asked to see it opened, problem as, it took two of them to pull apart an empty one.  The only thing i enjoy about those things is the plastic holder for them that is bolted to the board, replaces the old mating tray. 

Gun Platform Layout?

Anyone care to describe where they put everything, looking at other units, I can see that everyone has different SOP's. 

Any other interesting info you want to add to this will be read and enjoyed.  Cheers

Offline MrGnr27

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2005, 01:23:32 »
The enclosed ammo box thing came from a Summer Reserve concentration in the late seventies. ( No kidding ! ) It was raining and someone clicked in to the fact that wet propellant would not ignite when it came time for the Safety Officer to do his thing. ( Yes, the Safety Officer burns the charge bags....not the TSM ! )

The reason that you have been told it is a safety violation is because, by confining the propellant within a closed ammo box ( with the open end facing YOU ), you are risking a close cordite shave ! One spark in there and WUMPF !! You see.....at the time, there were a few lots of Cdn M1 Series ammunition which did not reach the point of "All Burnt" inside the barrel ( behind the accelerating projectile ). Once the gun went bang, the No 2 would open the breech as per normal drill. The air would cause a flash up off residual unspent propellant. Several Nos 1 or Det TWOEYESEES have had moustaches and eyebrows inadvertently trimmed as a result !! There was even a case where the breech was opened as the No 1 threw his remaining charge bags over the right trail. An unusually big flash ignited the charge bags in mid air, and these landed on the pile of bags on the right side of the gun. WUMPF !!

Burn kits: these originated in Gagetown and were exported to Shilo. ( Never did see them in my 14 years with 2 RCHA ! ). We had to use them at the RCA Battle School and WATC Det Shilo. Curiously, we never had to use them in Wainwright ! Nonetheless, you would be absolutely amazed at how many stupid accidents, and serious burns, have occurred as a result of improper burning of charge bags. Just ask any Ammo Tech. Better yet, ask a Range Control guy. These soldiers see that stuff a lot ! There were so many incidents that some ranges imposed local control measures. Hence, some ranges require burn kits and some do not.

Reference various standardsfrom range to range.....the new 381 ( Training Safety ) has done much to address this issue. Personally, I have not checked to see where we are re: mandatory issue/use of burn kits in the disposal of unused propellant. When I left Petawawa, the drill was for the TSM to get the bags off the gunline to a burn point selected by the Safety Officer. Further, the TSM was not to allow the bags to accumulate on the gun platforms.

Last word about charge bags: the Gun Drill manual is quite clear about the No 1's action with these. He retains them in his hand until the gun is fired. Once the gun is fired, the No 1 immediately tosses the unused bags to the side ( over the right trail ), not on top of the tannoy box !

Plastic ammo tubes: they were working on these in the early 90's. The reason was/is that the cardboard tubes swell when exposed to moisture. ( How can that be ? It doesn't rain when you're on an eight week Ex in Wainwright, or on your 6A Course in sunny Gagetown !! )
When the tubes are swollen, you can't pack up the prepared ammo when you suddenly get " Prepare to move......verify guns empty....cease firing !!"   all in one go !! In fact, to avoid this the ever-observant TSM used to jack up his Nos 1 for not always having enough tubes, covered and dry, to be able to pack up said ammo.

Gun platform layout: normally, this is standardized by the RSM. In 306(11) you will find that the location of your gun stores box is dictated to you. Everything else evolved by necessity and common sense. EG: cleaning stave sections screwed together with rammer attached, spade and pick placed next to gun stores box etc. Further, the Reserve regiments normally follow the layout of their regional RCHA regiment.

All of this flew when we had a standard gun, something which we haven't had for years ! In 2 RCHA, one bty had C1's while two others had L5 Pack Howitzers. For awhile there were two platform layouts. Then came the 109s out of Germany. Then came the LG1, and so on.

For awhile in 2 RCHA, the gun stores box was five paces behind the left spade. Ready rack of HE was to the right of that, centrally placed behind the gun in the ammo hooch. Rammer was placed to the right of the right trail. Beacause the charge bags were on top of a garbage bag on the right, the detachment's web gear ( less respirator ) and helmet were lined up to the left of , and parallel with, the left trail. Pers wpns were placed on top of each helmet, with everything squared away.

Anyway, there you have it. The minute I get back to work, I will check the new 381 to see what they say about disposal of unused propellant.

Ubique


Offline Bomber

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2005, 07:05:56 »
Dig it, thanks for the detailed reply.

Offline Bomber

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2005, 07:35:04 »
I saw a wicked "residual cordite burn" this summer that put the fear of god into the gun beside me, this was my reasoning to place the bags on the Tannoy, now after re-reading the gundrill book this morning, I will cease this practice.  I am still out on these burn kits though, seems like an awful lot of steps to go through to with the flare and the cord and cutting stuff and taping things.

Offline Gunner

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2005, 08:10:50 »
MrGnr27

Welcome to army.ca and the artillery forum.  You presence here is a great addition to our forum.

Cheers,

Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

Offline MrGnr27

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2005, 19:13:17 »
My pleasure, Sir !

Ubique

Offline RCA

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2005, 20:43:25 »
The "residual cordite burn" was called flashback and hence the 10 sec wait to open the breech (which really cuts into the 6 rds a minute. As well. its harder to stand the casing up if you can't open the breech at the end of the cradle. (Yes it can be done).  I remember one batch where every second rd seem to do it. It was the Number 1 & 3 who got the worst because the breech block protected the No 2.

  There was a case at WATC not long ago where the charge bags caught fire on the gun platform. It was determined that the spark came from the muzzle, and so therefor the charge bags are keep in a plastic bag as opposed to the folded up box.

As to the origin of the burn kit (pain in the *** they are), one rumour has it was a result of some Reg F MWO in Germany (no names, no pack drill) just about losing his veh because it was they were downwind to improperly laid out charge bags. (again, I state this is just a rumour).

 As to a Gun Layout, I feel that this is a No 1s perogative, and with the MLVW sevs I feel the gun box should stay on the gun tractor. (gun tractors parked and cammed on the position.

Ubique

Offline MrGnr27

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2005, 21:41:37 »
Couple o' points here......

1. There never was a "handle" on the residual flash as far as doctrine goes. A CIG Directive was issued implementing the 10 second delay.
    Regardless, no one went back to the manufacturer because of a thing called the Defence Purchase Management System. ( Some things
    are better left unsaid ! ).

2. I was on the WATC "What went wrong" effort. Can't comment, thank you !

3. The Germany Ref F MWO thing is just that - crap ! We weren't allowed to burn the unused propellant at anytime. That blows said "rumour" all to shite ! ( Besides that, there were some days, years ago, where I woukld probably admit to being that particular offender !! Back in the OLD DAYS, mind !! )

4. As for the gun layout being the responsibility of the No 1...C'mon man ! Never in the field of human conflict, as it were ! Could you imagine some greasy NCO IC Gun Wog having free rein on the gun position ? That is like giving an Infantry Section Commander total control of combined CA assets !! ( " Section in the open over there, Joe....let's hit 'em with rockets and CBU ! " ) RIGHT !

5. Kit is laid out for a reason. This is akin to drills being laid out for a reason. Instinct ! The minute you get hit, you know where your web and weapon are. Further, when the need arises for a particular piece of gun stores, you know where to get it. Lastly, your gunstores are supposed to be packed up in sequence upon "Cease Firing". If it becomes organized chaos, you will be in a real world of hurt at the alternate position in the event of Counter Battery fire !!.

6. SEV Kits: piece of convenience crap ! End of story !

7. SEV Kits: ( back-up to above statement ): soft-skinned vehicle with a false floor, underneath which are housed 48 rounds of 105mm Ball !!
Some Log Wog was tasked with a make-work project for Bombardier. We got some "miracle" vehicle that was supposed to do everything but Fire Piquet !! Gues what? What we got was a large, unprotected ammuntion magazine sitting between the gun platform and the Stand Easy ! Sorry, lad ! Not this Gunner's cup of tea. Let's face it....in this world of no Red Force DAGs and RAGs ( to the uninformed...formation artillery massing ), one beligerent with an RPG...just by your flanking sentry....and she's either cinder boxes or Rehab lLave for the whole battery !

8. "Shoot effective... Troop Stand Easy ! "

Ubique

Offline RCA

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2005, 13:32:39 »
   As I said it was just rumour. All I know there was a change from dropping a match on the charge bags (with them not piled and your veh a distance upwind)  to the 6 ft of cord attached to a railroad flare stuck in the charge bags. And I know some ammo techs are quite anal about counting how nmanyfeet of cord are use to verify it was used.     

Gun Platform layout. We have always taught that as a No 1 you are responsible for all that happens on the gun platform, and then every tom, dick and harry comes and tells him how his job. Gun layout is his responsibility and if he prefers the ammo hooch being on the right side as opposed to centered so be it. It robs the No 1 of initiative which I see sorely lacking in the No 1s today. ( I'm talking Res here).  It is up to the No 1 to drill his detachment coming in and coming out of action so it is not chaos, organized or otherwise. It the platform looks like a crap pit, thats when the Gun Line TSM steps in and has it straighten out.

Gun Tractors - It always seemed redundant to me to unload the tractor completely, and then move it a 100 m or more and hide it. The SEV has ammo and stores storage, why not use it. It a matter of placing in as best tactical postion as possible on the gun platform. It enhances our shoot and scoot ability. If we are going to be in a postion long term, then I see a the utility of moving the tractors into a wagon lines.

Ubique

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2005, 14:30:21 »
Quote,
Gun Platform layout. We have always thought that as a No 1 you are responsible for all that happens on the gun platform, and then every tom, dick and harry comes and tells him how his job. Gun layout is his responsibility and if he prefers the ammo hooch being on the right side as opposed to centered so be it. It robs the No 1 of initiative which I see sorely lacking in the No 1s today. ( I'm talking Res here).  It is up to the No 1 to drill his detachment coming in and coming out of action so it is not chaos, organized or otherwise. It the platform looks like a crap pit, thats when the Gun Line TSM steps in and has it straighten out.

......trust me when I was in 2 RCHA[W bty. was different] the platform got laid out the way you were told, I can remember a certain RSM walking our gun lines with measuring accouterments in hand.
Part of the reason I was a bit rebellious at times back then was I could see good idea's from good people get dismissed cause " thats the way it is" or "I should know, I wrote the drill", and it would drive me nuts, back then change was a dirty word.
RCA, as for your quote," as a No 1 you are responsible for all that happens on the gun platform" , from my recollection back then this only applied to the screw-ups.
Sound bitter, no, not at all..... but then I spent almost all my time in the CP/OP. 8)
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Offline RCA

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2005, 15:39:00 »
Bruce<

 I getting thick in my old age, but I missing the point of the quote below:

"
Quote
as a No 1 you are responsible for all that happens on the gun platform" , from my recollection back then this only applied to the screw-ups.

  And the RSM coming around with a ruler just proves my point further. I am not advocating a free for all for a layout. Webbing and weapons must be laid out neatly, salvage behind the ammo hutch, ready rds out, cleaning staffs assembled and layout out on the right side. But let the No 1 have some discretion in laying out the platform that works for him. TSMs are responsible for parallelism and gun drill.

No 1s now a days don't (or can't) use the C of A marker, but instead hover the 2 and 3 shoulder when laying the gun. ( I have actually seen No 1s looking in the pantel to check the lay). It slows things down, proves they don't trust their judgement, and don't trust the Det. They wait for the gun beside them to fire, to confirm they can. They don't trust themselves and don't have the confidence of their abilities.

The anomaly is that the No 1 is fully responsible for wingers (as he should be) but not the layout of his platform.
Ubique

Offline MrGnr27

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2005, 19:31:17 »
Before this one gets put to rest, I would like to make one thing clear. Uniformity is soldiering. It is also harmony. Kit layout is always standardized....not because " that's the way we've always done it ", but rather, a No 1 or 2IC can go from gun to gun and be able to locate anything in smoke, CB, fog, or whatever.

As a TSM, I was responsible for a tad more than "parallelism and gun drill". What about camouflage routine, trenches and arcs of fire, range cards, light discipline, and sentry rotation, to say nothing of local defence and crew-served wpns.

Both the Recce and Gun Line TSMs did their drills the exact same. They switched around to ensure this. The two thus ensured one uniform high standard.

On the other hand, there are six Nos 1 and six TWOEYESEES, all with varied levels of expertise. My experience as a TSM is such that if you do not get a grip on the Nos 1, they each start doing their own thing. As RSS, I remember the Res Nos 1 taking dangerous shortcuts during gun drill ( Check Bearing etc. )


No, Bomber, I disagree with you. The TSM IS the gun line !

Last point....what was the RSM doing on the gun line ? Where was the BSM ? Asleep in the A echelon ? When the RSM came to visit he was always with the Bizz. Further, the Bizz knew his TSMs, who, in turn, knew their Nos 1.

By rotating observation on each gun ( and monitoring routine ) during the various Fire Missions the TSM ensured uniformity in all aspects.

This bit of dialogue with you gives me the indication that you have your "poop in a group", as it were. Go with me on this one !!

Ubique


Offline muskrat89

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2005, 23:24:03 »
Quote
Both the Recce and Gun Line TSMs did their drills the exact same. They switched around to ensure this. The two thus ensured one uniform high standard.

Or - as was the case with me usually - the Gunline and Recce TSM were one and the same! 13 years in, the last 6 or so as TSM. By far, my favorite job of all. Sounds like I would have been doing things the way you liked, Master Gunner   ;)


The only time I didn't enjoy life on the gunline was when the School went through a stint where the "flavour of the day" was dispersed gun positions. Ick!  I think the sudden skyrocketing costs of tannoy wire was the demise of that concept...  :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2005, 23:32:38 by muskrat89 »
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2005, 08:22:11 »
I guess why I have a bit of a sore "spot" for the whole gun platform layout is that the one thing I never understood was why we layed out all the kit we did. Now don't get me wrong I firmly beleive in the "uniformity" thing, I remember jumping out of the CP and getting somebody elses gas mask because the kit wasn't layed out properly, and accordingly got the "nice" effects of trying to seal a mask that was too small for my large noggin.
However "my"  doctrine had always invisioned the gun position more like a "quick action" scenario with the gun tractor behind the platform and the shovel/axe/etc. stored in thier "uniformed" built in holding places, and just the required nessesities on the ground. I never understood taking away your means of escape and parking it 200 metres away and then, if the shell fire didn't get the driver running across the open field, having to throw everything in the back of the truck as fast as possible so that things that you may require were buried under "stuff" untill you could sort it out.
Like I said my thoughts were that most of the fire a GP would take would be unobserved triangulated or CB fire so getting away fast should have been a priority but, it seemed like having everything under the sun layed out for inspection was more important at the time.
Now this is just my personal opinion of what I that of the "Hilton" type GP's, it just seemed to me to be locked in the WW1 trench mentality.   Am I wrong?
Bruce
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Offline RCA

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2005, 14:15:48 »
First, I agree that there is more to the TSM's duties and responsibilities then just drill and parallelism.  The uniformity of layout only works within a Battery, moving to a different NBty or Regt, mens a different layout. For the layout to be truly standardized don't you thing it wouldn't have been in 306-11 (old) or as a  CIG directive.

 Uniformity has its place and there was a time when where kit placement on webbing had to be uniform. Now a days we are moving away from that and letting the soldier decide where properly to place ammo pouches etc.
Ubique

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2005, 00:58:42 »
When it comes to charge bags and being open, instead of a closed ammo crate, I think that that would be MORE dangerous. The muzzle break already points back beside the gun, do you really want to have open charge bags just lying around to burn openly. Anyone who has been to a charge bag burn would say no. I mean on a C3 do you really want to be the #2 then? I don't think so! Besides at least if the crate starts on fire at least you can kick it over with little risk to the gun detachment, and the gun detachment has a better chance at battling a directed fire as apposed to a sporadic one.
And one last thing, the TSM should be insuring that the guns don't have that many unused charge bags on their position in the first place. He/ she should keep the number of charge bags down so that safety can deal with the safety situation of unused chargebags and keep the risk to the guns minor.

I just thought I would through my two cents in.

Offline MrGnr27

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2005, 22:32:35 »
Charge bags are perfectly safe to the right of the right gun wheel and trail. 18 years on the L5 Pack Howitzer, with both types of muzzle brake, tells me so.

I mentioned, a few posts ago, that the TSM is not to allow the charge bags to accumulate.

Muzzle brakes: no problem re: the charge bags. Remember that a muzzle brake reduces the shock of recoil by directing the gases to the L/R rear. That is all it is.......gases, blast overpressure.....not fired-up propellant.

Yo Bruce !! We finally got around to getting you CP Queenies to lay out your kit! Well done, you !!

Anyway, we were discussing charge bags and suddenly went into the pros and cons of having wagon lines. I was in the Regiment when we went from prime movers in the wagon lines, to prime movers on the gun platform. We had a CO who figured that the only way to survive CB fire was to crash to the alternate position.

As a professional "field guy", I had issues with this. ( However, as he was the CO, and I was the green-faced gun wog, I had to implement the Will of Allah ).

You see, where I come from, when you get hit with CB fire, you have no option but to sit there and take it until you are told to move. You don't necessarily get "Move To Alternate Now !!", " Boots and Saddles", or whatever, upon the arrival of the first hostile round. So.....you sit there and take it while your prime mover gets taken out, along with your readyrack of 105mm Ball !!! Right on your platform !!

On the other hand, with proper dispersion of guns on the ground, and a wagon line off the gun line, you stand better survivability. Further, if there is a CB threat, gun pits and trenches would be routine. Readyrack would be underground in a splinterproof.

Now, if we had some form of wheeled splinterproof as a prime mover, I could probably be persuaded to go the other way with this.

Anyway, just my two cents worth.....

( See you at "Stand To " !!!! )

Ubique

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2005, 23:12:15 »
Quote
Now, if we had some form of wheeled splinterproof as a prime mover, I could probably be persuaded to go the other way with this.

All the way through Artillery phase training in the late 1980s, I never could get a satisfactory answer on why we had a gun tractor in the MLVW that was less armoured then the one we had in WWII...

I also never understood how exactly the gun line was supposed to survive the "inevitable" BM-27 CB strike when we never practised digging in, either.

Ahh the memories...

MrGnr27- we must have crossed paths in 2 RCHA.   I was there in '91-'92 in Y Bty...

Offline MrGnr27

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2005, 23:35:41 »
We dug in on a regular basis in the Second Regiment. That was, until the M109s came in from Germany.

In fact, we used to do it once in the Summer and, get this, once in the Winter. The Sappers would come out and loosen the frozen ground for us. Further, they would show up with a FEL if available.

I don't know what "Y" Bty was doing at that time. I remember them standing up and then going downtown to the Pembroke Armories at some point.

I left in ' 94 , just as " The Empire Struck Back " !!! 

Ubique

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2005, 07:21:30 »
Wow, didn't realize untill I read your post MrGnr27, someone else on the forum who remembers the L-5, ;) I see at the Pet. 100th Anniverserary this summer 2RCHA is doing a gun race,......L-5's?
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Offline Gunnerlove

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2005, 20:54:56 »
I guess the problem of accumulating charge bags would be solved by the frequent moves required to avoid effective CB.

But then again I want to replace the number three sight with a GPS and gyro, so I am a bit of a "radical".
"Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty." Unknown

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Offline MrGnr27

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2005, 23:13:53 »
Frequent moves ( regardless of CB ) are not really in the agenda, given the real estate problem. ( I remember the Van Doos doing a recce in our A Echelon one fine morning. It appeared that "there was no room for them at the inn ", as it were.  Where am I going with this ? That night, they did a mech assault onto their DS Bty position.....our flanking Carl Gustav guys showed no remorse....neither did the umpire staff !!!! )

Point: Buddy....there ain't no real esatae to move into.

Point 2: Buddy....GPS and Gyro are happening now. Not on the gun sight, mind you, but as a replacement for the Director. We pissed around with developing our own Star Trek method of orientation ( GACS ), and went back to the proven aiming circle. At the time we were doing the GACS thing, the Yanks were using a GPS and gyro for Bty orientation and survey. We spent ( the odd ) on R&D when we could have had a viable system for a mere 5g per unit.

Anyways, yet another two cents......

HUA

Ubique

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2005, 10:16:18 »
2 RCHA still uses the L5's for the gun race.  They are however called the "Army Gun Race Team"  There was 2 members of the RCR and an engineer on the team last year.  The also had a custom ramp built to eliminate the 4 gun tractors with winches that they were using.  The new Chasm looks a bit smaller than when they used the trucks, but the entire operation is now able to be carried by a bus for the "runners" and a tractor trailer for the guns, ramps, and the chasm's structure.

Offline MrGnr27

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2005, 17:46:48 »
The L5 Gun Race thing started in 1 Airborne Battery RCA of The Canadian Airborne Regiment. We picked it up off 29 Commando Regiment RA of the Roayal Marines. Because we were actaully two mini-batteries ( A and B troop ), we used to do battle with each other via the gun race.

When that outfit disbanded in ' 77, we moved to Petawawa as "E" Bty (Para). The gun race thing didn't go away. In fact, it flourished. Since all of 2 RCHA had the L5 at the time, it only made sense to do battle with "D" Dty AMF(L). Later on, "F" Bty was taken on, and the gun race became a bit of a Second Regiment tradition.

Historical two cents worth...........

Ubique

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Rules and Problems
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2005, 18:15:41 »
MrGnr,
 I found a photo of a bunch of fools standing in front of a building in England showing off some wings, know these guys? It actually a cool souvenir, didn't know my late father kept EVERYTHING....I guess he know I would appreciate them someday. :salute:
Bruce
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