Poll

The RCN has its old rank titles and executive curl back.  What should be the next step for the CF rank structure?

Nothing.  The current rank system works, so leave it alone.
120 (58.5%)
Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.
40 (19.5%)
Complete return to post unification ranks of the 70s and early 80s.
1 (0.5%)
Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.
9 (4.4%)
Copy the UK rank system - it is the prototype anyway.
17 (8.3%)
Copy the US rank system - they are the new colonial master.
2 (1%)
Create a whole new Canadian system.
8 (3.9%)
Lobby for standardized NATO rank insignia.
7 (3.4%)
Copy the French rank system - it is the other founding nation's turn
1 (0.5%)

Total Members Voted: 203

Author Topic: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation  (Read 2515218 times)

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Offline Old Sweat

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Ladies and Gentlemen, here come the pips and crowns:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4882

What he said.

News Release
 

Canada restores historical features of the Canadian Army

NR 13.221 - July 8, 2013
 
HALIFAX – The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, announced today the Government of Canada’s intent to restore Canadian Army rank insignia, names and badges to their traditional forms.

“Our Government is committed to honouring the traditions and history of the Canadian Army,”said Minister MacKay.  “The restoration of these historical features will encourage the esprit de corps of our soldiers and reinforce a rich military tradition that will continue to develop as they serve their country.  Wherever I travel in Canada, these changes continue to be cherished in the hearts of our veterans.”
 
The changes include the re-introduction of divisional nomenclature and patches for the current Land Force Areas; traditional rank insignia for officers; corps shoulder titles from the restoration of Royal titles to a number of Canadian Army corps in April 2013; and the Canadian Army’s secondary badge. Further, the Minister of National Defence announced the intention to restore the historical Army rank names for non-commissioned members.
 
“The restoration of these features is a significant step in the restoration of the Canadian Army’s traditions,” said Lieutenant-General Peter Devlin, Commander of the Canadian Army.  “Symbols and traditions establish links to soldiers’ heritage, and are important.  It is very significant that our non-commissioned members have the prospect of being able to bear the same ranks as their forbearers, and our officers will proudly wear the same insignia worn by Canadians who fought in the First and Second World Wars and Korea.”

These restorations are the next step in the phased approach that began in August 2011, when the historical name of the Canadian Army was restored.  Stemming from this initial restoration, and in line with historical lineage, the Canadian Army’s secondary badge will be reinstated, and the Land Force Areas will be renamed under division names, with division patches introduced accordingly. 

Additionally, following from the restoration of traditional titles to a number of Canadian Army corps, shoulder titles for members of these corps will be restored. The intent is also to restore historical rank names for non-commissioned members, the traditional and internationally recognized convention of army insignia of stars and crowns for officers, and gorget patches for colonels and general officers.
 
-30-
 
For more information on the restoring the Canadian Army’s Historical Identity, please visit http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4880

Offline cupper

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It's hard to win an argument against a smart person, it's damned near impossible against a stupid person.

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Someone has been reading this forum way too much.

70 pages of the good idea fairy.  :(

Offline reveng

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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You know, I am actually wishing that Paul Hellyer would consider a comeback tour...

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As a taxpayer and former member, here's my WTF slow clap ...

In the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby on politiicans, ".... they need activity. It is their substitute for achievement."

Standby for media ATIP of how much THIS will cost.

What next - Pilot Officers and Flight Sergeants back in the RCAF?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 15:14:17 by milnews.ca »
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Offline reveng

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So does this mean all NCM's are getting an essential demotion on the rank they wear? I.E. Sgts are going to wear the ranks of Cpls, and Cpls will be hook Ptes or some BS like that?

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So does this mean all NCM's are getting an essential demotion on the rank they wear? I.E. Sgts are going to wear the ranks of Cpls, and Cpls will be hook Ptes or some BS like that?

It sounds like it, I just looked up the pre-unification ranks and I'm thinking I'll hold off getting my mess kit rank until they sort this gongshow out.

Offline reveng

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It sounds like it, I just looked up the pre-unification ranks and I'm thinking I'll hold off getting my mess kit rank until they sort this gongshow out.

No doubt brother, no doubt...

Good to know that everything the military has done since the late 60's doesn't mean squat - apparently.

Offline cupper

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So does this mean all NCM's are getting an essential demotion on the rank they wear? I.E. Sgts are going to wear the ranks of Cpls, and Cpls will be hook Ptes or some BS like that?

As I read it, rank name will only change for those indicated in the clarifying news release (eg. privates will use the traditional regimental / branch / corps terminology).

There will be changes to the insignia, reverting to the use of pips and crowns. How this will effect NCMs remains to be seen. 
It's hard to win an argument against a smart person, it's damned near impossible against a stupid person.

There is no God, and life is just a myth.

"He who drinks, sleeps. He who sleeps, does not sin. He who does not sin, is holy. Therefore he who drinks, is holy."

Let's Go CAPS!

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2761 on: July 08, 2013, 15:19:46 »
From the DND blurb:

Quote
  • Privates of the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps will be referred to as “Trooper”;
  • Privates and corporals of the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery will be referred to as “Gunner” and “Bombardier” respectively;
  • Privates of the Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers will be referred to as “Sapper”;
  • Privates of the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals will be addressed as “Signaller”;
  • Some Privates of the Royal Canadian Infantry Corps will be referred to as “Fusilier,” “Rifleman” or “Guardsman”, depending on their type of unit; and
  • Privates of the Corps of Royal Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers will be referred to as “Craftsman”.
It's nice - and I dare say typical - that Signals, in trying to be politcally correct/gender neutral, has managed to screw the pooch.

Signaller, in the 1960s - which is what the underemployed in NDHQ appear to be trying to recreate, referred to a soldier in any arm except Signals who was qualified in regimental signalling. The rank for private soldiers in the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals was signalman. Now it appears that gusradsman is good enough for the men and women in the ranks of of the CGG and GGFG so why is it too "masculine" for Signals?
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline reveng

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2762 on: July 08, 2013, 15:26:06 »
From the DND blurb:


It's nice - and I dare say typical - that Signals, in trying to be politcally correct/gender neutral, has managed to screw the pooch.

Signaller, in the 1960s - which is what the underemployed in NDHQ appear to be trying to recreate, referred to a soldier in any arm except Signals who was qualified in regimental signalling. The rank for private soldiers in the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals was signalman. Now it appears that gusradsman is good enough for the men and women in the ranks of of the CGG and GGFG so why is it too "masculine" for Signals?

Missed the second part, thanks!

I'd still wait out on the Mess Kit PuckChaser...just the way things are going and all  ;)

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2763 on: July 08, 2013, 15:30:08 »
It's nice - and I dare say typical - that Signals, in trying to be politcally correct/gender neutral, has managed to screw the pooch.

C&E Branch screwing the pooch? Say it isn't so...  ::) The Branch CWO even had the terms identified the way you stated last October during the Sgts Indoc course.

I'm wondering if I'll get 2 Div patches, one for each arm? Or one on top of the other? My DEU is about to look like a RCEME flag.

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2764 on: July 08, 2013, 15:36:56 »
One could remark, with tongue firmly in cheek, that the RCEME seem content to call their lowest rank Craftsman instead of the gender neutral Crafter, which I guess they would have if they had followed the RCCS lead.

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2765 on: July 08, 2013, 15:41:05 »
C&E Branch screwing the pooch? Say it isn't so...  ::) The Branch CWO even had the terms identified the way you stated last October during the Sgts Indoc course.

I'm wondering if I'll get 2 Div patches, one for each arm? Or one on top of the other? My DEU is about to look like a RCEME flag.


It's because they are focused on the late 1960s, a time they regard, quite erroneously, as some sort of khaki coloured "golden age," and, not surprisingly, because  they don't know their own Corps' history and traditions. Not surprising because they were never in the bloody RCCS ... but they wanted to have been. It is a bad, sad, case of penis envy by officers who joined circa 1968 and retired just recently or are about to retire. They want to wear the ranks they never had before they put away their uniforms; they're the same people who think wearing your mess kit after you're retired is a) something a gentleman would do (it isn't), or b) appropriate (it isn't that, either).
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline OldTanker

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2766 on: July 08, 2013, 15:52:02 »
Its disappointing that the Army staff have nothing better to do with their time, not to mention the taxpayers' dollars, than to pursue irrelevant projects like this. Perhaps the money could have been better spent on operational training or equipment than baubles. Now I have no idea what a Canadian Division is.

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2767 on: July 08, 2013, 16:00:46 »
I just got some information from a confidential source whom I trust that the push for this came largely from outside the army and indeed outside the department. I am not sure how much support there was for various items in the army and in DND. I suspect the restoration of rank titles may have had more internal support than did bringing back the old badges of rank and gorget patches.

Offline MCG

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2768 on: July 08, 2013, 16:10:33 »
Based on the >56% who replied in the poll to just leave the ranks alone (more than double those who wanted to see pips & crowns) it would seem the decision has been imposed by ones out of touch with what the troops think is important.  A half century of Canadian identity tossed to the trash.  It is important that we connect with the image of our grand parents' generation and their service in the first half of the twentieth century, forget about all the service in the second half of the century and our losses in Afghanistan. 

Now, not only will the different services be unable to properly name the ranks of the others, they will not recognize them either.  There is nothing better than a new barrier to effective communication.  This is going to be money well spent.

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Re: The great CF Rank change Mega Thread (structure, names and insignia)
« Reply #2769 on: July 08, 2013, 16:12:17 »
I just got some information from a confidential source whom I trust that the push for this came largely from outside the army and indeed outside the department. I am not sure how much support there was for various items in the army and in DND. I suspect the restoration of rank titles may have had more internal support than did bringing back the old badges of rank and gorget patches.


I heard something similar from a very senior serving officer who shared the view, expressed here by several members, that the CF has nearly a half century of new, very honourable traditions of its own which are built upon that foundations of the "old" army but which deserve to be respected i the 21st century.

But many people - especially those who "just missed" pips and crowns and Sam Browne belts and all that - hunger for what they think, erroneously I repeat, were the 'good old days.'
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
----------
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Offline MCG

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Now that the areas becoming divisions is announced, I wonder how long it will de before there are Velcro div patches for all our combat sleeves.

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Verve and perspicacity don't get captured in audits
Sounds like a t-shirt aching to be silk screened ....
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Offline PanaEng

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I'm still hoping it is a belated April 1st joke - the insanity!!!

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4882

Quote
The changes include the re-introduction of divisional nomenclature and patches for the current Land Force Areas; traditional rank insignia for officers; corps shoulder titles from the restoration of Royal titles to a number of Canadian Army corps in April 2013; and the Canadian Army’s secondary badge. Further, the Minister of National Defence announced the intention to restore the historical Army rank names for non-commissioned members.

- mod edit to remove link in accordance with Milnet.ca policy -
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 16:35:47 by milnews.ca »
Now I am SAS or SWAT dude ;-)
see:
Quote from: RHFC_piper ink=topic=51916.msg617784#msg617784 date=1190404708

The 'pana" is a play on the Greek 'pan' meaning 'all' or 'encompassing' - not quite but similar to UBIQUE
some think I just misspelled "para" :-)

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Here's a second source. 

Canada News Centre Story Link

Canada restores historical features of the Canadian Army
NR 13.221 - July 8, 2013

HALIFAX – The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, announced today the Government of Canada’s intent to restore Canadian Army rank insignia, names and badges to their traditional forms.

“Our Government is committed to honouring the traditions and history of the Canadian Army,” said Minister MacKay.  “The restoration of these historical features will encourage the esprit de corps of our soldiers and reinforce a rich military tradition that will continue to develop as they serve their country.  Wherever I travel in Canada, these changes continue to be cherished in the hearts of our veterans.”

The changes include the re-introduction of divisional nomenclature and patches for the current Land Force Areas; traditional rank insignia for officers; corps shoulder titles from the restoration of Royal titles to a number of Canadian Army corps in April 2013; and the Canadian Army’s secondary badge. Further, the Minister of National Defence announced the intention to restore the historical Army rank names for non-commissioned members.

“The restoration of these features is a significant step in the restoration of the Canadian Army’s traditions,” said Lieutenant-General Peter Devlin, Commander of the Canadian Army.  “Symbols and traditions establish links to soldiers’ heritage, and are important.  It is very significant that our non-commissioned members have the prospect of being able to bear the same ranks as their forbearers, and our officers will proudly wear the same insignia worn by Canadians who fought in the First and Second World Wars and Korea.”

These restorations are the next step in the phased approach that began in August 2011, when the historical name of the Canadian Army was restored.  Stemming from this initial restoration, and in line with historical lineage, the Canadian Army’s secondary badge will be reinstated, and the Land Force Areas will be renamed under division names, with division patches introduced accordingly.

Additionally, following from the restoration of traditional titles to a number of Canadian Army corps, shoulder titles for members of these corps will be restored. The intent is also to restore historical rank names for non-commissioned members, the traditional and internationally recognized convention of army insignia of stars and crowns for officers, and gorget patches for colonels and general officers.

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<related but a tangent>
Elsewhere in the "everything old is new again" department, ".... This keeps very much with the tradition of the Canadian Officer Training Corps which was set up on campuses around Canada until 1968 ...." - more in another thread here
</related but a tangent>
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