Author Topic: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins  (Read 231473 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Spinaker

  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,434
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 127
  • So. How do you think that went?
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2011, 20:11:59 »
The "in service" requirement kind of creates a problem, along with the TDP transfer requirement as I see it.  The only thing I can think of that starts to meet requirements is the M&P (no trigger pull to strip, interchangeable grips of various sizes, etc. But it's plastic, and I don't know how DEET and POL will impact it really. The M&P's "no trigger pull" is an annoying feature more than anything else that was apparently a response to perceived ND risks on stripping and assembling. Realistically, I don't see why this is a huge issue, teaching the drills properly kind of makes it irrevelant.

The convenient thing about the M&P "no trigger pull" feature is you can completely ignoe it and take it down almost like a Glock.  The inconvenient thing about this is it may be interpreted as in violation of the above requirement.

That being said, I don't believe the SOR is written in stone as of yet.  The project is in Edmonton speaking with soldiers about what they want...fancy that.
"Since you attended public school, I'm going to assume you're already proficient with small arms, so we'll start you off with something a little more advanced."

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 201,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,873
  • Freespeecher
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2011, 20:38:38 »
I wonder if anyone in the project considered thinking out of the box and not even specifying a "pistol". A compact PDW, or a weapon chambered in a different calibre than 9mm might be a more appropriate choice for a military personal weapon in this day and age.

Just a personal observation...
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Not a Sig Op

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 61,552
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,871
  • I'm just a musical prostitute, my dear.
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2011, 20:46:44 »
Wouldn't that depend if it was being carried as a primary weapon or a secondary weapon? Seems needlessly heavy to carry a rifle and a PDW. Does anyone carry a pistol as a primary weapon now where a PDW would be more appropriate?

Then if you're carrying a PDW as a primary weapon, hasn't it also been more or less accepted that you're better off carrying a carbine or a rifle than a PDW?

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 201,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,873
  • Freespeecher
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2011, 21:01:27 »
I suppose that depends of what the perceived need for a pistol actually is. Maybe troops need an intermediate PDW type weapon so they only carry one rather than a rifle and a pistol. The part 2 of the question (should they be chambered in 9mm) is based on the observation that 9mm is a fairly old and low powered round, while we may be looking at engaging targets protected by armour or possibly "hyped up" through drugs or mental conditioning.

Anyway, I am just wondering if anyone had thought of the problem as more than a straight replacement project.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Spinaker

  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,434
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 127
  • So. How do you think that went?
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2011, 21:12:29 »
I can check tomorrow but I believe a PDW remains on the table as part of SAM or the follow on projects. 

My personal opinion is that I have a hard time finding a real requirement for a weapon between the C8 and the pistol.

9mm remains due to commonality, the relatively low recoil allowing for easier trg especially for inexperienced pistol shooters, mag capacity, and the fact that  there probably isn't all that much to be gained by going to a more powerful round.  In terms of armour penetration there is not likely to be another calibre of pistol ammo with considerably better performance.  Against a target under the influence of drugs etc, without the kind of catastophic damage you are probably going to need hollow points for, shot placement is going to be the only way to get a quick cessation of threat.
"Since you attended public school, I'm going to assume you're already proficient with small arms, so we'll start you off with something a little more advanced."

Offline Redeye

    Living The Afghan National Army Dream...

  • Banned
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 46,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,205
  • Hope Is Not A Method
    • The Unofficial Website of the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2011, 07:55:44 »
The convenient thing about the M&P "no trigger pull" feature is you can completely ignoe it and take it down almost like a Glock.  The inconvenient thing about this is it may be interpreted as in violation of the above requirement.

That being said, I don't believe the SOR is written in stone as of yet.  The project is in Edmonton speaking with soldiers about what they want...fancy that.

You can, but I found it more difficult than the Glock to do because of the position/function of the takedown lever. It's not that much of a hassle, it just seemed like a silly step with mine.
Palma Non Sine Pulvere - Nothing Worth Having Comes Easily!

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 201,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,873
  • Freespeecher
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2011, 09:31:50 »
9mm commonality is probably the key factor.

To penetrate an armoured target we *could* specify a much hotter round than currently issued, or a specificly formulated round like the FiveSeven round (also used in the P-90), or a new calibre like .40 or .45ACP (which would make the Americans happy, at least)

The large calibre .45 was developed to drop a hopped up Moro warrior during the Phillipines war in the early part of the last century, so in theory it can fulfill both functions.

Anyway, this is all theoretical, they will come up with a more modern 9mm that we will use until 2060...
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 73,375
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,932
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2011, 11:06:27 »
9mm commonality is probably the key factor.

"Only pistols chambered for NATO 9 x 19mm ammunition will be considered because Canada is committed to maintaining ammunition interoperability and standardization with its trusted allies and NATO."

I find a couple of things interesting; one, that the request was issued on 08 Sep 2011 and the final date for 14 Oct 2011. That's doesn't seem to be very much time to put a bid together. Secondly, that "for National Security reasons, the weapons will be produced in Canada by Colt". That would mean that the winner would have to give Colt the design specifications for their product. How many companies would be willing to do that?
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 545,420
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,513
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2011, 11:09:21 »
"Only pistols chambered for NATO 9 x 19mm ammunition will be considered because Canada is committed to maintaining ammunition interoperability and standardization with its trusted allies and NATO."

I find a couple of things interesting; one, that the request was issued on 08 Sep 2011 and the final date for 14 Oct 2011. That's doesn't seem to be very much time to put a bid together. Secondly, that "for National Security reasons, the weapons will be produced in Canada by Colt". That would mean that the winner would have to give Colt the design specifications for their product. How many companies would be willing to do that?

This is not a request for bids; it's a request for price and availability.  It's a public recce announcement, in other words.

Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 73,375
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,932
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2011, 11:37:26 »
This is not a request for bids; it's a request for price and availability.  It's a public recce announcement, in other words.

Thanks for pointing out the difference.
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 214,275
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,883
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2011, 13:54:00 »
In terms of armour penetration there is not likely to be another calibre of pistol ammo with considerably better performance. 
5.7 mm.  I know DLR had several ATWO students investigate a 5.7 mm pistol a few years back because of its better armour penetration.

Against a target under the influence of drugs etc, without the kind of catastophic damage you are probably going to need hollow points for, shot placement is going to be the only way to get a quick cessation of threat.
10 mm, .40 cal, .45 cal, .50 cal will all be more effective against the hopped-up on drugs individual .... whether that "more" is significant or not, I don't know.

There is a obvious trade-off above. The 5.7 mm is going to be less effective against the hopped-up on drugs threat, and the larger calibers will either come with greater recoil or reduced effectiveness against armour (or possibly both). 

Of course, there are other variables that one could play with.

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 545,420
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,513
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2011, 14:09:30 »
Buying one that's in-service means many of the teething pains have been wokred out by others.  Similarly, using a NATO standard round simplifies the supply chain significantly - how many allies stock 5.7mm or 10mm, compared to the number who stock 9mm?

Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 214,275
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,883
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2011, 14:35:21 »
Similarly, using a NATO standard round simplifies the supply chain significantly - how many allies stock 5.7mm or 10mm, compared to the number who stock 9mm?
It does not simplify anything when the ammunition safety empire in ADM(Mat) does not allow Canadian soldiers to fire non-Canadian NATO standard ammunition. 

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 545,420
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,513
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2011, 15:37:12 »
I will merely observe that forgiveness can be requested if needed if we share the same calibre; it's not possible if we go with a non-standard round.

As for the control issues certain parts of NDHQ have...
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline BernDawg

  • Wood Butcher
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 11,695
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 980
  • Retired... workin' harder than ever!
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2011, 17:52:22 »
I will merely observe that forgiveness can be requested if needed if we share the same calibre; it's not possible if we go with a non-standard round.

As for the control issues certain parts of NDHQ have...

We were issued British 7.62 ammo in Suffield years ago (86) and it didn't cycle properly in our C1's. As a result of that I never had much faith in the "NATO Standard" doctrine.

Don't haggle too much over types of rounds either becasue we all know that except for the MP's all we'll be able to run through it is ball.
"We can't all be heroes... because someone has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by."  Will Rogers
Someone has to be last.  At least if it's me I know where all the assholes are.

Online Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 272,045
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,330
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2011, 17:56:24 »
I can check tomorrow but I believe a PDW remains on the table as part of SAM or the follow on projects. 

My personal opinion is that I have a hard time finding a real requirement for a weapon between the C8 and the pistol.

9mm remains due to commonality, the relatively low recoil allowing for easier trg especially for inexperienced pistol shooters, mag capacity, and the fact that  there probably isn't all that much to be gained by going to a more powerful round.  In terms of armour penetration there is not likely to be another calibre of pistol ammo with considerably better performance.  Against a target under the influence of drugs etc, without the kind of catastophic damage you are probably going to need hollow points for, shot placement is going to be the only way to get a quick cessation of threat.

I can think of several applications where "carbine characteristics (out to ~300m)" in a "SMG form-factor" would be operationally desirable.  HK G36C or C8CQB if you stick with 5.56, or something like a KAC PDW if you're willing to accept .243/6mm ammo that still works well out to 300m but is notably more compact than the G36 or C8.

Re: GSP: the HK P30LS would be nice....very similar to P226 overall, but HK's own action provides the require DAO but with much nicer trigger pull.  I agree with others who appreciate the significant training required to mentally move folks from SA to DA pistols, especially DA than can be decocked...the potential for ND's resulting from poor understanding to DA characteristics is significant.

Regards
G2G

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 179,390
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,610
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2011, 05:21:14 »
I have used brakeclean on my M&P, Glock and Sig 2340 for quite some time, no noticeable effects. slightly off topic, keep brakeclean away from all Norinco plastic parts.......... :nod:

The HK and Sigs would be nice, but I doubt the difference is worth the price over the M&P and Glock. That price difference will add up in a hurry when buying a large number of guns. Of course selling our Inglis HP to collectors here in Canada and the US would offset a significant amount of that costs, but stupidity will get in the way of that.



Offline BernDawg

  • Wood Butcher
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 11,695
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 980
  • Retired... workin' harder than ever!
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2011, 11:17:36 »
course selling our Inglis HP to collectors here in Canada and the US would offset a significant amount of that costs, but stupidity will get in the way of that.

One can dream but they'll probably go the way of the C1. That being said, I would be one of the first in line to buy one. If only for sentimental value.
"We can't all be heroes... because someone has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by."  Will Rogers
Someone has to be last.  At least if it's me I know where all the assholes are.

Offline Bass ackwards

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 42,485
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 295
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2011, 21:22:30 »
Is there any data available to indicate how many times a CF member on ops has had to actually use a handgun ?


 
 

Offline Snaketnk

  • Member
  • ****
  • 11,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 240
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2011, 22:09:13 »
I have no data except for personal anecdotes. There was a few times last year that I was very happy to be carrying my pistol. Usually it was as an air sentry in a LAV or a as a gunner in crowded villages/KC when we had pedestrians swarming around the vehicles (on the move), and the only way to put a weapon on someone was to reach over the side of the vehicle with your pistol. Also, pistols got drawn while searching individuals and when you needed a little bit more intimidation. Nothing scatters a crowd like the sound of a pistol being readied.

Personally I never felt a problem with our pistol except I found the grip a bit small for my hands, and the safety awkward to use. Nothing a couple of really simple modifications couldn't take care of. To me there's a lot more pressing issues in regards to our kit.

PDWs sound great in theory, being issued to vehicle crews etc. But the reality of deployments is that people get thrown around into different roles on a regular basis and your role changes from day to day. Some days I was driving. Others I was in engagements at 300+ metres. the C8 is plenty small and light enough to maneuver with in vehicles.
-------
Pro Patria

Offline Angry56789

  • Guest
  • *
  • -1,390
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2011, 16:58:42 »
Why Berretta?  Why not the Sig Saur P226 which is already in use with certain parts of the CF.

SOF, MPs, Navy boarding parties; At least I "think" I am at least partially correct.

Offline Bread Guy

  • Bread Baker & Info Curator (still learning @ both)
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 456,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,977
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2011, 06:57:09 »
An update.....
First step from MERX:  Price and Availability RequestMore details on what's wanted, as well as projected timeline from here to purchase (Fall 2015) in the attached files.

Process to find a new pistol firing alright, process STOPS
Quote
Solicitation W8476-123150/A - PW-$$BM-027-21769 has been cancelled.

Not the only weapon selection process halted - more here.
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Bread Guy

  • Bread Baker & Info Curator (still learning @ both)
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 456,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,977
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2011, 07:02:54 »
Meanwhile....
Quote
Despite all its bluster about saving money and honouring Canada's armed forces, the Conservative federal government is poised to melt down millions of dollars worth of military memorabilia.

Specifically, the Department of Defence is planning to send 19,000 highly collectable Browning Hi-Power pistols made in Toronto more than 60 years ago to the smelter and destroy them, instead of allowing licensed firearm owners to buy them for hundreds of dollars each.

As reported recently, the Canadian Forces are replacing the Browning Hi-Power semi-automatic pistols starting in the fall 2015. The decommissioned sidearms, the standard military issue pistol for the forces since 1944, are set to be destroyed.

The price of used handguns varies widely but a price of $300 to $500, excluding any military historical value, is common. Assuming an average $400 price tag for the Browning, selling the surplus to licensed collectors could raise more than $7 million in much needed-revenue for the government.

But that's not the plan.

"The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces are committed to the safe disposal of firearms," wrote forces spokeswoman Josee Hunter in an e-mail Friday. "The standard DND practice for disposing of restricted small arms is destruction through smelting." ....
Toronto Sun/Sun Media, 8 Oct 11
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 372,776
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,558
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2011, 08:10:05 »
Quote
Despite all its bluster about saving money and honouring Canada's armed forces, the Conservative federal government is poised to melt down millions of dollars worth of military memorabilia.

Specifically, the Department of Defence is planning to send 19,000 highly collectable Browning Hi-Power pistols made in Toronto more than 60 years ago to the smelter and destroy them, instead of allowing licensed firearm owners to buy them for hundreds of dollars each.

And can you imagine the opposite?

Conservative government is poised to release 19'000 PISTOLS into the hands of potential criminals and other dangerous offenders! 
WHY aren't we just destroying these death dealing relics of the 50's?

After NSE in Afghanistan (08-09) ordered sergeants and below not to carry pistols because it made them look like officers I couldn't care less about the pistol and saw it for what it really was.
Our pistols may be getting replaced but it will be decades before the shiny new kit syndrome settles down and the soldiers that effectively need pistols manage to pry them from the fingers of you know who.

The brownings we have are obviously well used and abused, not respected very well, but I've shot a well maintained and respected browning on the range and it was incredible to shoot.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 220,405
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,979
Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2011, 08:24:57 »
The PR of selling off those pistols would bite the government in a big way if even one was identified in any criminal activity.....
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe