Author Topic: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins  (Read 215780 times)

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Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« on: September 08, 2011, 07:18:01 »
First step from MERX:  Price and Availability Request
Quote
".... The Canadian Forces (CF) are looking to replace all current types of pistols in use with a newer weapon and is gathering information on the Price and Availability of weapons and the number of potential contenders as part of its planning and budget process. Personnel from all services of the CF will use these pistols for self-DEFENCE. The GSP will replace the 9mm Browning High Power (HP) and the 9mm Sig Sauer Model 225 pistol ...."
More details on what's wanted, as well as projected timeline from here to purchase (Fall 2015) in the attached files.
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Offline lethalLemon

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 07:37:49 »
Sounds cool, maybe the CF will pick up some Berettas! Mmmm...  ;)
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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 07:49:55 »
Sounds cool, maybe the CF will pick up some Berettas! Mmmm...  ;)

Why Berretta?  Why not the Sig Saur P226 which is already in use with certain parts of the CF.

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 08:04:05 »
Why Berretta?  Why not the Sig Saur P226 which is already in use with certain parts of the CF.

It does say that they're looking so it could be anything. You could say the same thing... why did they have some using 225s and the rest Browning? Why didn't they just send out everyone one brand? I'm just pondering, nobody knows what they'll put to trial and purchase. Berettas are VERY nice handguns, my father has had one since the 80's when his was with the Strats (when they still called Calgary home) and it's taking quite a beating and still performs beautifully (and I don't even take care of it as well as a military man does). The Sig Sauer are great as well, the P226 is a very nice model too.

EDIT: Also, what ever happened to that Para Ordnance company here in Canada that made those fantastic P14-45 and LDA pistols? Did it close shop or something? I was thinking, if they still existed, why don't they take up work with them for a GSP? It would create jobs, it would be buying Canadian and stimulating our own markets/economy.

EDIT again: Apparently the P226 is no longer made in 9mm, but now in .40SW. Would this have an impact on whether or not it would be considered for trial and purchase as a GSP? I also say the disclaimer: " for National Security reasons, the weapons will be produced in Canada by Colt" Does this mean that if they decide that - let's say the HK P30 9mm is selected - all of the parts for initial production and issue are shipped to Colt and assembled there to ensure they haven't been tampered with, along with all maintenance and life cycle materials (As Colt employees are pre-screened)?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 08:31:07 by lethalLemon »
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 09:06:14 »
Para moved to the US - closer to their market and fewer stupid laws with which to deal.

http://www.paraord.com/new/why_about.php

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 09:26:03 »
It does say that they're looking so it could be anything. You could say the same thing... why did they have some using 225s and the rest Browning? Why didn't they just send out everyone one brand? I'm just pondering, nobody knows what they'll put to trial and purchase.

Disregard my comment about the P226.  In my reply I was just wondering why you would want the CF to go for the Berretta.  I have minimal experience with Beretta pistols(fired a 92F once and didn't like it). Just wondering what pros you see in Berretta to be a GSP for the CF.

As for why the CF had some 225s but kept the Browning as the Service Pistol, I don't know for sure, I assume certain units had certain requirements for what they wanted in a Pistol and the BHP didn't meet those requirements.


I'll look it up about the P226 no longer being made for 9mm, haven't heard that before and the P226 on the Sig Saur website is still listed as being available in 9mm.

Offline signalsguy

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 09:47:59 »
4 years to first delivery? For what is a COTS purchase?

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 09:55:09 »
Double action only? Prepare for lots of range time re-evaluating failures.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 09:57:09 »
4 years to first delivery? For what is a COTS purchase?

Yes.  Step 1: gauge industry interest - 6 months

Step 2: acquire small quatities of each potential candidate.  Refine & finalize the statement of requirements - 18 months

Step 3: compete and issue contract - 6 months

Step 4: arrange technology transfer to Colt - 12 months

Step 5: Colt begins production and delivers first lot in quantity - 6 months


That's quick and dirty off the top of my head.  Parts of the timelines may shift.  Approvals may be longer, depending on whether it's MND or Treasury Board that approves the acquisition.  Technology transfer is tricky as companies negotiate.

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 10:17:40 »
4 years to first delivery? For what is a COTS purchase?

It's not really a COTS purchase - the winning design will be produced under license by Colt Canada, so they're basically contracting for a TDP/license production package.  I wonder how many companies will bid that have products that meet that description.

There's a DAO version of the Browning Hi-Power. Glock has a proven design in wide use as well, so does Smith & Wesson. So does SIG, after all - I wonder what will come out of it.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2011, 10:25:09 »
Double action only? Prepare for lots of range time re-evaluating failures.

I wonder whose bright idea that is.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2011, 11:06:40 »
Legend has it that the reason we still use Browning Hi Powers is they were built in Canada in the waning days of WWII for the Nationalist Chinese Army, but the Communists had defeated them by the time the order was ready to be shipped. Since pistols are not a high use item, the thousands stored in the warehouse could sit quietly in their packing for decades while the issued ones wore out. Dust off a box, and voila! a replacement is here.

As for service pistols, I am a fan of the Glock series, but since I use a pistol so infrequently it almost does not matter what is selected. I'm sure the unit that uses pistols all the time will also get a budget to refine or modify the issue weapon to their needs anyway.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 11:12:38 »
I wonder whose bright idea that is.

Typically, DAO is incorporated as a Cover Your (Corporate) *** option, especially with up to an 8 lb trigger pull.

"You really, really, really wanted to pull the trigger, otherwise, it wouldn't have fired, right?"

In most cases, it also means no external hammer or one that you can physically operate.

The idea that they're reasoning is only one type of trigger pull seems just a tad far fetched and unrealistic, IMHO.
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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 11:17:13 »
Unless stocks are dwindling, there is no need to replace the Browning. And if stocks are dwindling, refreshing them with new Brownings would likely be cheaper than replacing the remainder. I see no advantage to dumping one of the best pistols made.

Ambidextrous extended safeties would be a nice upgrade though.

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 11:28:33 »
Legend has it that the reason we still use Browning Hi Powers is they were built in Canada in the waning days of WWII for the Nationalist Chinese Army, but the Communists had defeated them by the time the order was ready to be shipped. Since pistols are not a high use item, the thousands stored in the warehouse could sit quietly in their packing for decades while the issued ones wore out. Dust off a box, and voila! a replacement is here.

The Inglis Mk 1 No 2's made for Nationalist China were distinctly marked as I understand it. There's one in the War Museum with a leaf site graduated to 500m.  It's pretty much an indirect fire weapon at that point, rather humourous.  A lot of the Chinese ones were also sold to the public, I've seen a couple of them at shows and ranges.

As for service pistols, I am a fan of the Glock series, but since I use a pistol so infrequently it almost does not matter what is selected. I'm sure the unit that uses pistols all the time will also get a budget to refine or modify the issue weapon to their needs anyway.

Glocks are simple, easily maintained, and apparently pretty durable.  They're also ridiculously accurate. I used to shoot a fair bit and owned a Glock 17. Out of the box, it was ridiculously easy to get supertight groupings with.  As far as getting them, if I remember right, the finishes on them are a proprietary process, and I'm not sure they'd be keen to license the design out.  Guess we'll see though.

Edited to add - one thing that is a strike again them - their mags are a b**ch to fill without a tool - the springs are ridiculously tight - but that's probably the main reason why they tend to be fail-proof.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 13:18:25 by Redeye »
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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2011, 12:54:20 »
Ambidextrous extended safeties would be a nice upgrade though.

As would tritium night sights and a magazine that falls free from it's housing.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 13:17:06 »
As would tritium night sights and a magazine that falls free from it's housing.

Item 3-1
The GSP must be provided
with fixed luminescent
tritium 3 dot adjustable
sights that assist CF
personnel in engaging the
target in periods of darkness
and reduced visibility.


3-15
When released, the magazine
(fully loaded, partial or
empty) should drop freely
from the pistol with little or
no assistance from the
shooter.
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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2011, 13:43:22 »
Unless stocks are dwindling, there is no need to replace the Browning. And if stocks are dwindling, refreshing them with new Brownings would likely be cheaper than replacing the remainder. I see no advantage to dumping one of the best pistols made.

Ambidextrous extended safeties would be a nice upgrade though.

Surely you jest.


Also, based on the document above the Glock in current configurations is out as the trigger must be depressed to strip.
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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2011, 13:52:22 »
The Inglis Mk 1 No 2's made for Nationalist China were distinctly marked as I understand it.

I was issued one at the Infantry School while on course in 1970 or 1980. The Chinese characters had been overstamped with "X"s.

There's one in the War Museum with a leaf site graduated to 500m.

The one issued to me had had that sight replaced with the standard one. They were also slotted for a hollow wooden shoulder stock that doubled as a slung holster.

It's pretty much an indirect fire weapon at that point, rather humourous.

It was designed to be fired that way using the shoulder stock. I do not know how that worked at long range, but it didn't do much for accuracy at short range.

A lot of the Chinese ones were also sold to the public, I've seen a couple of them at shows and ranges.

I have one. I acquired a shoulder stock in very good condition in 1985 or 1986 from a Flight Engineer at 427 Squadron in exchange for a nylon shoulder holster that was surplus to my requirements. They went for $500.00-$600.00 then. I picked up the pistol in Germany for half of that.

Offline Tango18A

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 14:41:51 »
Legend has it that the reason we still use Browning Hi Powers is they were built in Canada in the waning days of WWII for the Nationalist Chinese Army, but the Communists had defeated them by the time the order was ready to be shipped. Since pistols are not a high use item, the thousands stored in the warehouse could sit quietly in their packing for decades while the issued ones wore out. Dust off a box, and voila! a replacement is here.


We have at least one at the Regt. Chinese markings on the slide.

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 22:39:09 »
Item 3-1
The GSP must be provided
with fixed luminescent
tritium 3 dot adjustable
sights that assist CF
personnel in engaging the
target in periods of darkness
and reduced visibility.


3-15
When released, the magazine
(fully loaded, partial or
empty) should drop freely
from the pistol with little or
no assistance from the
shooter.

I was referencing those point when I made my comment, which was more pointing towards the fact that this contract is pushing towards a more modern pistol then the Hi-Power, and that they have thought of more then just an ambidextrous mag release. I'm a bit torn about the "in service with NATO country" stipulation though. On one hand it should guarantee we get a reliable, proven weapon. It could, however, be taken to mean we aren't going to explore some newer variants of proven weapons, the Sig Pro comes to mind. I wonder if the no depressing the trigger to take the weapon apart bit is a deliberate attempt to keep the glock out of the picture? Also if they aren't going to replace the P226 with this "GSP" why not just out and out say they want to buy P226s and site the advantages of a common pistol across the CF. Surely if the pistol meets the needs of CP / CANSOFCOM it will meet the needs of the rest of the CF.

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2011, 22:48:57 »
They may have already made up their minds, but we have to go through the whole deal with contracting and tendering. The fact that they have very specific requirements that you've listed some of them mean that whoever is doing the contracting has a few pistols in mind and wants those companies to bid. Service with a NATO country is just a way to weed out companies they don't want. The Sig Pro might be considered, but since we always buy last year's technology, we may end up with something designed and built in the 90s.

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2011, 00:14:39 »
If they plan to transfer tech to colt, then a Clusterf**K will happen. As i understand it Glock is out because of the  "No pulling trigger to disassemble" requirement. The Sig 2022 would be a decent choice, like a 226, but cheaper and less corrosion problems. Just talking to someone here in malaysia and they are having corrosion issues with their sigs.

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2011, 15:12:48 »
Unless stocks are dwindling, there is no need to replace the Browning. And if stocks are dwindling, refreshing them with new Brownings would likely be cheaper than replacing the remainder. I see no advantage to dumping one of the best pistols made.

Ambidextrous extended safeties would be a nice upgrade though.
They've dwindled.

All pistols that become NS now, for whatever reason, are cannabilised for their parts as that is the only supply there is.  I forget the numbers, but despite the huge stock of pistols we had at one time, the attrition rate is pretty heavy on them.

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Re: Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2011, 15:58:07 »
If they plan to transfer tech to colt, then a Clusterf**K will happen. As i understand it Glock is out because of the  "No pulling trigger to disassemble" requirement. The Sig 2022 would be a decent choice, like a 226, but cheaper and less corrosion problems. Just talking to someone here in malaysia and they are having corrosion issues with their sigs.

The "in service" requirement kind of creates a problem, along with the TDP transfer requirement as I see it.  The only thing I can think of that starts to meet requirements is the M&P (no trigger pull to strip, interchangeable grips of various sizes, etc. But it's plastic, and I don't know how DEET and POL will impact it really. The M&P's "no trigger pull" is an annoying feature more than anything else that was apparently a response to perceived ND risks on stripping and assembling. Realistically, I don't see why this is a huge issue, teaching the drills properly kind of makes it irrevelant.
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