Author Topic: Search for New Canadian Ranger Rifle (merged)  (Read 222542 times)

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Search for New Canadian Ranger Rifle (merged)
« on: July 13, 2011, 06:38:41 »
Harry Angel, Andrew Morton, Chris Ste-Croix, Brian Mangan, and Paul Vilhena, "CANADIAN RANGER RIFLE: HUMAN FACTORS REQUIREMENTS VALIDATION," DRDC Toronto CR-2010-174, 31 August 2010 (101 page PDF)

Abstract:
Quote
The Directorate of Land Requirements (DLR) is engaged in an acquisition process that will deliver a new Canadian Ranger Rifle (CRR) capability to the  Canadian Forces (CF). The aim of this project was to assist the DLR in assessing the draft operational requirements and better define the overall CF requirement for a new CRR. Eight half-day workshops were held with 135 Canadian Ranger (CR) personnel from four of the five Canadian Ranger Patrol Groups (CRPG). The workshops were broken down into five modules: background information, weapon use inventory, performance requirements, basic technical requirements, and detailed technical requirements. The in-service Lee Enfield No 4 Mark 1* rifle is generally considered a durable, reliable, and accurate weapon but is faulted for its weight, age and availability of parts, and magazine. Protection from predators,  hunting/survival tool, and a symbol of Canadian sovereignty/CR were the most important roles of the CRR. Reliability, accuracy, and durability in extreme environments were most important performance criteria. The basic and detailed technical requirements modules collected CR preferences on specific characteristics and features wanted in the new CRR. Results suggest the new CRR should be a bolt action of .308 Winchester / 7.62mm calibre that is shorter and weighs less than the current Lee Enfield. Further technical requirements are presented and discussed.  Overall, the results from these workshops indicate that the CR require a reliable, durable, and accurate rifle, with updated features that is lighter than the current Lee Enfield.

More in attached Abstract/Executive Summary.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 07:39:53 by milnews.ca »
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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 15:36:34 »
What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
Ammo.

MM
MM

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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 09:30:18 »
Ammo.

lol

I have to wonder...I've never really heard any of the Rangers I've worked with (which are admittedly very few) complain about the old bang stick. Pretty easy to maintain, doesn't break in the cold, etc.

Is this the bright idea fairy coming to roost or is there an actual requirement for this?

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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 09:35:22 »
It maybe that .303 ammo is becoming scarce. SWAG!!
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Offline Jimmy_D

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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 09:47:01 »
Caliber 7.62 NATO (.308 Win)
Operation Bolt Action
Length 44.3 - 47 inches 
Weight 14.33 lbs (6.5kg) empty without telescope
Barrel Length 24 inches 
Twist, Right Hand 1 turn in 12 inches 
Magazine Capacity/td>  10 or 12 round detachable box magazine 
Maximum Effective Range 1000 yards


The L96A1 is the British Army designation of the standard AWC PM. The L96A1 won a British Army competition by a slight margin over the Parker-Hale M85 to become the standard sniper rifle for the British Army. The PM utilizes an aluminum frame over which is placed a high impact plastic stock. An adjustable Parker Hale Bi-Pod is fitted as standard. An uprated version, the AW, features many minor improvements, including an easier bolt action, frost proof mechanism, muzzle brake and a 10x42 hensoldt telescopic sight. The L96A1 is capable of sub MOA with military ammo, and gets to about half of that with good match grade ammo. The AW is imported to the US by Accuracy International, and is for sale to the public.
Other Models in use: PM Counter-Terrorist Rifle, PM Covert Sniper Rifle, and the PM Super Magnum Sniper Rifle

Compared to:

-  Mark 1  Mark 3  No. 4 Mark 1 
-  Barley Corn foresight
Tangent Leaf Rear  Blade foresight
Tangent leaf Rear  Blade foresight
Vertical leaf Rear 
Operation  Bolt Action 
Caliber  .303 in, Rimmed cartridge, 2.15in case length 
Muzzle velocity  2060 fps  2440 fps  2440 fps 
Ammunition  Mark 6 ball, 215 grain bullet, 33 gr charge
Mark 7 ball, 174 grain bullet, 36.5 gr charge 
Capacity  detachable box magazine, holding 10 rounds in two columns
Normally loaded from stripper clips 
Weight  8.12 lbs, unloaded  8.62 lbs, unloaded  8.8 lbs, unloaded 
Overall length  44.57 in overall, 25.2 in barrel 
Rate of fire  20 aimed rounds per minute 


Yes it the L96a1 may weigh more and be an Arctic sniper weapon system, but reliability is where its assets are.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 10:14:59 by Jimmy_D »
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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 10:04:36 »
What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
Ammo.

MM

LoL
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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 20:36:36 »
Ammo :-)  Tee hee!

I understand that part of why they're looking for a replacement rifle is that, believe it or not, the military is running out of old #4's.  I was told that the CF actually purchased a bunch of surplus #4's a couple of years back (from Italy I think it was?) to extend the supply a bit, but even those are running low.

What do they need?


A rifle that is:

Durable

Reliable

Reasonably accurate (predator defence)

Reasonably powerful (predator defence)

Easily maintained.

And the rest  of the stuff is mostly in the paper...

NS
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CF starting to ask manufacturers for information
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 07:39:33 »
Next step in the process:  whaddya got for us, industry, for how much (but it's not a bid just yet) - this from MERX:
Quote
.... The Canadian Forces (CF) are looking to replace the current Canadian Ranger Rifle (CCR) with a newer weapon and is gathering information on the price and availability of weapons that meets our requirements and the number of potential contenders as part of its planning and budget process. The current CF service Canadian Ranger Rifle is a .303 calibre, No 4, Lee Enfield.  These weapons were manufactured during the early 1950s and becoming increasingly difficult to support.

The New Canadian Ranger Rifle (NCRR) is seen as a robust bolt action hunting rifle with minor customization that can fire both commercial .308 Winchester and 7.62 x 51mm NATO ammunition. It is used in the Canadian Arctic, (in extreme cold) and on the eastern and western seaboard in (a salty/ corrosive environment). This procurement will occur as part of the Small Arms Modernization (SAM) project and is expected to occur along  these approximate timelines:

Activities and Timelines

Price and Availability (P&A) published:    Summer 2011
P&A results received:    14 October 2011
Options Analysed and Requirements refined:    Fall 2011
RFP issued more than likely preceded by a SOIQ:    Summer 2012
Weapon Selected and Contracted awarded:    Winter/Spring 2013
Start of delivery of new CRR:    Fall 2013/Winter 14 ....
More details on what's wanted in attached bid document.
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Offline RangerDanger

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 13:01:55 »
Basically:

The Rangers need a new rifle as upkeep of the Enfield is becoming harder. With the stock of parts and magazines dwindling, equipping a Ranger with working Enfield is becoming quite difficult.

Serving as a Ranger I was issued only 1 mag as opposed to the mandatory two.

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2011, 13:22:33 »
I agree the Rangers need a new rifle but im glad to see they are staying in the area they are. I've had good experiences with Rangers and their management out of Yellowknife but I've also had numerous run ins with drunken rangers and their duty weapons. I'd hate to see me any further outgunned in these situations.

The firearm proposed seems reasonable for sustenance hunting and their duties.
Posted again...thats six in six.

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2011, 16:53:13 »
I agree the Rangers need a new rifle but im glad to see they are staying in the area they are. I've had good experiences with Rangers and their management out of Yellowknife but I've also had numerous run ins with drunken rangers and their duty weapons. I'd hate to see me any further outgunned in these situations.

The firearm proposed seems reasonable for sustenance hunting and their duties.

I was going to suggest something that we already have in stock....perhaps C7, but then I saw this....I had no idea they were permitted to carry their rifles home with them.

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2011, 08:31:14 »
A Sun Media reporter's column on the search (and his preference) for a new Ranger rifle (highlights mine) shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.
Quote
So the Canadian Rangers — the Arctic militia — are getting a new rifle to replace the iconic Lee-Enfield Mk4 that they've carried since they first stood up in 1947.

According to the army, the supply of parts to repair or replace damaged or lost weapons is completely exhausted.

Some will say it's about time. Others will lament the end of the Enfield era, which means saying goodbye to the century-old .303 British cartridge, too.

The defence department and the Rangers themselves have agreed the new cartridge will be the .308 Winchester, one of the most popular big-game hunting cartridges in North America. It is also the standard 7.62 NATO military round used by the Canadian Forces.

But first they must choose a replacement rifle for the venerable Lee-Enfield, which was designed in 1895, and that won't be easy.

"Old it may be, but it's durable, accurate, reliable, and fast handling," said famed gun scribe Terry Wieland, who served in the Canadian Forces reserves. "The Lee-Enfield is one of the very best rifles ever developed for the joint-use as a military and hunting rifle the way it was employed by the Canadian Rangers."

The government intends to buy 10,200 new Ranger rifles — whatever they may be — and has provided some details about what qualities the new Canadian Ranger Rifle must have, and the Rangers themselves weighed in during a series of workshops last summer.

(The first of the new guns will be delivered by late fall 2013 or early winter 2014.)

Among the requirements is that the gun have a "distinctive look" that instills pride in the Rangers and becomes a symbol of the Arctic militia. The government is also restricting the search to commercial-off-the-shelf offerings with only “minor customization."

One option would be for the government to contract Colt Canada, the Canadian Forces' small arms manufacturer in Kitchener, Ont., to build a new generation of improved, modernized Lee-Enfields chambered in .308 Winchester, or buy Enfield replicas currently produced by an Australian firm. But concerns about quality, and the need for an off-the-shelf product rule both of these out.

Another option still — proposed by this writer — would be the Ruger Gunsite Scout with a few notable modifications: a 20-inch barrel, and a light, durable fiberglass stock in army green with the Ranger emblem embedded in the buttstock.

Whatever gun the government decides to buy for the Canadian Rangers, one thing is certain, it should be the best firearm available to them for the self-defence, military, and hunting applications they need it for.

The Rangers are a proud symbol and integral part of a Canadian north strong and free. From search and rescue operations under the most hellish conditions, to patrolling and being a presence in the frozen Arctic and remote coastal regions, the Rangers deserve no less than the absolute best equipment money can buy … or build.

— Bryn Weese is an avid hunter and crazed gun nut who loads his own ammunition. He has worked in the Arctic and has seen the Rangers in action in northern Ontario.
Toronto Sun, 1 Oct 11

Not sure why a picture of a .50 cal round, though  ???

- Edited to add links to options mentioned by reporter -
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 17:38:51 by milnews.ca »
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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2011, 06:55:14 »
Remember, you read it here first.

Process for finding a new Canadian Ranger rifle firing alright, process - STOPS!
Quote
Solicitation W8476-123195/A - PW-$$BM-027-21790 has been cancelled.

Not the only new weapon process halted, either - more here.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 06:58:22 by milnews.ca »
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Offline Jimmy_D

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2011, 07:02:09 »
so thats the general service pistol and the new ranger rifle both halted on the to do list?? whats next?
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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2011, 07:27:12 »
so thats the general service pistol and the new ranger rifle both halted on the to do list?? whats next?
Good question - no word out yet re:  why, or what's next instead.  We'll have to wait and see.
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Why the cancellation? Process needs more work
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2011, 21:29:36 »
Here's the answer DND came up with re:  why the process has been halted (complete response attached):
Quote
As part of the Small Arms Modernization (SAM) project, the Department of National Defence (DND) is assessing options for the replacement of the 9mm Browning High Power and the 9mm Sig Sauer Model 225 pistol with a new
General Service Pistol (GSP), as well as the replacement of the Lee Enfield rifle with a New Canadian Ranger Rifle (NCRR) .... The DND Small Arms Modernization (SAM) Project Management Office (PMO) requested that Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC) cancel both the GSP and the NCRR Price and Availability (P&A) requests on MERX as a result of questions, and requests for clarification, from industry.  The feedback from industry brought the DND SAM PMO to re-evaluate its procurement strategy. The DND SAM PMO is now focusing efforts on clarifying the procurement strategy for the GSP and NCRR with the intent to facilitate future communication with industry.  The comments and observations received from industry in response to the P&A requests will be considered when the final requirements are written.  The replacement of the GSP and NCRR remain a priority for DND.  The next step of the project will be to obtain Preliminary Project Approval (PPA). No additional solicitations will be posted on MERX until after PPA is obtained and an approved procurement strategy is in place ....
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Offline MedCorps

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2011, 18:14:14 »
Look like the problem is the weapons manufactures (or DND depending on how you look at it):

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Military+cancels+planned+weapons+purchase/5558920/story.html

----
The short of it:

But DND also stipulated that any firms wanting to bid on the two contracts would have to turn over their technical data and proprietary information to the government, which in turn would pass it on to Colt Canada. Colt would then manufacture the weapons at its plant in Kitchener, Ont.

But defence sources say companies told the government they had no intention of turning over the details of their firearms designs to a subsidiary of the U.S. small arms giant Colt, a key competitor for many of the firms on the international market.

The government then hastily retreated, cancelling its request to the companies for information about prices and availability.

---

MC

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 16:12:35 »
I was going to suggest something that we already have in stock....perhaps C7, but then I saw this....I had no idea they were permitted to carry their rifles home with them.
Rangers being photographed handling CF weapons is a big taboo and a no no.  It's a politically charged topic because then First Nations people think we're shipping their sons/fathers/uncles/brothers off to war somewhere.  The Rangers are not an Offensive tool within the Canadian Forces and they have a very specific job.  Their greatest success is staying within their community and being a CF presence there, so them being issued a CF assault rifle would never happen as there is no need for them to use it... ever.

As for the NCRR project, it is moving forward.  I'm going to the first of many working groups in May, and as of 2 months ago finished our proposal for the budget requirements to do the testing on the NCRR proposals.  So far the hiccups in the contracting are not slowing us down, this project is still creeping forward.
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Offline MedCorps

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 18:27:00 »
I think that the NCRR was eaten up by the Small Arms Modernization Project (SAMP)  as one of the 11 items in this component.  If that is the case the time line may have increased as the implementing is between next fiscal year and FY 18/19 for all of these componets.

Not sure where the ranger rifle will fit on this time line, but the other items in the SAMP are also very important for the operational CF.  The SAMP consists of:

C6 / C7 / C8 / C9 (maybe) upgrades
Pistol / Ranger Rifle / M203 / .50 HMG replacement
Improved sights and accessories
Sharpshooter introduction
Reduced weight ammunition

So when you look at that list I would suggest that it is hard to put the ranger rifle to the front of the line.

MC

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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 18:33:40 »
I think that the NCRR was eaten up by the Small Arms Modernization Project (SAMP)  as one of the 11 items in this component.  If that is the case the time line may have increased as the implementing is between next fiscal year and FY 18/19 for all of these componets.

Not sure where the ranger rifle will fit on this time line, but the other items in the SAMP are also very important for the operational CF.  The SAMP consists of:

C6 / C7 / C8 / C9 (maybe) upgrades
Pistol / Ranger Rifle / M203 / .50 HMG replacement
Improved sights and accessories
Sharpshooter introduction
Reduced weight ammunition

So when you look at that list I would suggest that it is hard to put the ranger rifle to the front of the line.

MC

Actually, given that the Ranger Rifle will be an off-the-shelf purchase, it can go to the front of the line - no development work needed.  It's other efforts where we need R&D, tech co-operation or evolution of doctrine that will take more time to be ready to procure; may as well let the procurement folks get started witrh the easy one.
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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2011, 21:19:20 »
Agreed... you think it would be easy to pick off the procurement list.

Many of the other parts of this project are also COTS I suspect and should be easy to pick off the list also.  Last time I talked to the guys at DLR they said:

C6 - new SF kit, night vision attachment system, rail system of some sorts.

C7 / C8 - rail system, new cocking handle, back up sight, cam system, new rear sling attachment, maybe a power rail / battery system.

C9 - they are unsure -- needs a full user survey.

Accessories:  New slings, magazines, soft belt carriers for the C6 / C9, flashlights, cleaning kits, lasers, collimators, suppressors.  All COTS.

The weapons sight may or may not be COTS: Combined close quarter and magnified sight, maybe with a new reticle pattern. Sounds a bit like the ACOG-ECOS, but I am sure there are other COTS options available.

The procurements will be long - pistol (which as already had problems in the procurement system), M203, HMG, reduced weight ammunition (although this could be COTS, I am not sure what is on the steal case market).

Sharp shooter capacity will be long I suspect unless someone has good vision.  It is not meant to complete with Sniper Systems Project, so we will see what comes out of it as the SSP is a pretty comprehensive vision.  Anyone care to comment?

MC

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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2011, 21:50:13 »
lol

I have to wonder...I've never really heard any of the Rangers I've worked with (which are admittedly very few) complain about the old bang stick. Pretty easy to maintain, doesn't break in the cold, etc.

Is this the bright idea fairy coming to roost or is there an actual requirement for this?

Wook

The Enfield is built to last. There is an old I believe it was made between 1939-41 in the closet here at home that ended up being used for hunting etc for decades after the war. Still in perfect firing condition today (except lack of ammo). 
The Lee Enfield is like the original Nintendo of firearms: It ain't gonna die unless you try to kill it yourself... And then it'll probably still keep working. :D
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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2011, 01:36:05 »
The Enfield is built to last. There is an old I believe it was made between 1939-41 in the closet here at home that ended up being used for hunting etc for decades after the war. Still in perfect firing condition today (except lack of ammo). 
The Lee Enfield is like the original Nintendo of firearms: It ain't gonna die unless you try to kill it yourself... And then it'll probably still keep working. :D

The ammo is readily available, even at stores like Canadian Tire.

You just need an invasive government issued license (PAL) to purchase it.
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Re: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2011, 06:26:30 »
I have a Lee Enfield #5 Mk 1 great hunting rifle, just bought a couple hundred rounds for it 3 weeks ago no shortage of hunting ammo. How ever the military hard point might be in short supply, but that could be rectified by getting some one to make it. The Rangers I worked with and talked to wouldn't trade there Lee Enfields for any thing. That being said a lot of us felt the same about the FN.
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Re: DRDC Paper: What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2011, 09:29:28 »
The Lee Enfield is like the original Nintendo of firearms: It ain't gonna die unless you try to kill it yourself... And then it'll probably still keep working. :D
Except that you don't have to blow on the cartridges to make them work.