Author Topic: Cutting the CF/DND HQ bloat - Excess CF Sr Leadership, Public Servants and Contractors  (Read 276270 times)

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Offline Strike

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9D, who is a Francophone born in Montreal, says when she speaks to people in France, they tell her she speaks the French of the peasant class of several hundred years ago (about the time they came over, I guess).  In some films produced in France she's seen, Quebec speakers are used to play peasants from that time.

Which is why I've always maintained that Quebec French is closer to the original French than what the French across the pond speak.
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Offline dapaterson

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Just be careful with your pronunciation if you're at the corner of St Laurent and Ste Catherine, looking for french fires, gravy & cheese curds.  A slight shift of emphasis on the final syllable and you could be directed to something else...
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Reluctantly dragging this back to the original topic, here's the Defence Minister's take on the Leslie report - highlights mine:
Quote
Since taking office in 2006, this Government's commitment to our Forces has included the resources and flexibility needed to ensure success in the UN-mandated, NATO-led combat mission to Afghanistan. More recently, Canadians gave our Government a strong mandate to strengthen the Canadian Forces; this means providing our troops with the necessary tools and equipment, while ensuring the military remains responsive, agile and efficient. Concurrently, our government will be taking a close look at spending right across government to identify the savings needed to eliminate the deficit: this includes the Department of National Defence.

The report by the former Chief of Transformation, LGen Andrew Leslie, and his team was submitted to the Chief of the Defence Staff and the Deputy Minister for their review in July of this year. The Chief of Transformation was mandated to propose organizational changes that are appropriately balanced and aligned across the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces. This report will inform our approach to the Government's Deficit Reduction Action Plan, the results of which will be presented in Budget 2012.  At all times, support for our frontline troops will be our priority.  These men and women put their lives on the line for Canada and we must do everything we can to ensure that resources are being allocated to support their effectiveness and safety.

The Transformation Report was an ambitious and complex undertaking, and the work of the Transformation Team will help define necessary organizational changes to prepare the Canadian Forces for the next decade.
Not really saying too much, one way or another - "we'll take this under advisement, and our priority will be the sharp end."
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Offline frank1515

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CANFORGEN on Transformation just came out.


DURING THE PAST FEW WEEKS, QUESTIONS HAVE BEGUN TO CIRCULATE REGARDING THE STATUS AND FUTURE OF CF TRANSFORMATION. THIS HAS BEEN ACCOMPANIED BY SPECULATIVE REPORTING AND CONJECTURE FUELLED BY THE UNCONTROLLED RELEASE OF COPIES OF THE REPORT. TO AVOID CONFUSION, I WISH TO REINFORCE COMMANDER’S INTENT ON THIS TOPIC BY PROVIDING YOU WITH A BRIEF SUMMARY OF WHERE WE VE BEEN, WHERE WE ARE, AND WHERE I SEE US GOING WITH THE JOURNEY THAT IS TRANSFORMATION.


THE CURRENT ROUND OF CF TRANSFORMATION EXTENDS UPON WORK INITIATED BY GENERAL HILLIER IN 2005, WHEN I WAS MYSELF APPOINTED CHIEF OF TRANSFORMATION. I CONTINUED THIS PROCESS AS CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF, IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE DEPUTY MINISTER, BY APPROACHING THE MINISTER IN 2010 FOR HIS APPROVAL TO STAND UP A TRANSFORMATION TEAM UNDER LGEN LESLIE. THOUGH MODEST IN SIZE, THIS COMBINED MILITARY AND CIVILIAN TEAM WAS STAFFED WITH STRONG TALENT AND A STRAIGHTFORWARD MANDATE: FIND WAYS OF REDUCING OVERHEAD TO INCREASE OPERATIONAL OUTPUT, INCREASE THE INTEGRATION OF OUR FORCE EMPLOYMENT, FORCE GENERATION, AND FORCE DEVELOPMENT PROCESSES, AND PROPOSE ALTERNATIVES TO STRENGTHEN HOW OUR HEADQUARTERS WORK. THE IDEAS PUT FORWARD HAD TO BE POSSIBLE TO IMPLEMENT IN A CHALLENGING FISCAL ENVIRONMENT, AND NEEDED TO REFLECT THE LEADERSHIP ROLE DEFENCE WILL PLAY IN SUPPORTING GOVERNMENT EFFORTS TO FIND EFFICIENCIES. FINALLY, THE MEASURES PROPOSED HAD TO ENABLE OPERATIONAL CAPABILITIES, NOT DIMINISH THEM.


GIVEN THE EXPECTATIONS OUTLINED ABOVE, IT WAS CERTAIN THAT THE TRANSFORMATION TEAM WOULD PRODUCE A REPORT WITH NOVEL IDEAS AND TOUGH RECOMMENDATIONS. LGEN LESLIE S GROUP HAS DONE THEIR JOB WELL, AND I AM SATISFIED WITH THE RANGE, DETAIL, AND INNOVATIVENESS OF MANY OF THE IDEAS BROUGHT FORWARD. THESE RECOMMENDATIONS CHALLENGE THE STATUS QUO, AND WILL PUSH THE CF AND THE DEPARTMENT TO CONSIDER NEW WAYS OF WORKING, OF STRUCTURING ITSELF, AND OF PROVIDING DEFENCE CAPABILITIES TO CANADA.


BUT THE FISCAL AND OPERATIONAL ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH THE RECOMMENDATIONS MUST BE ASSESSED AND IMPLEMENTED HAS BECOME EVEN MORE COMPLEX. AS WELL, WHILE THE REPORT WAS BEING PREPARED, NEW BUDGETARY REDUCTION TARGETS WERE ANNOUNCED AS PART OF THE GOVERNMENT S DEFICIT REDUCTION ACTION PLAN. TAKEN TOGETHER, THIS CREATES A DIFFICULT BACKDROP FOR INTERPRETING THE POTENTIAL ADVANTAGES AND DRAWBACKS OF RECOMMENDATIONS MADE IN THE TRANSFORMATION REPORT. LACKING THE CONTEXT PROVIDED BY SOUND BACKGROUND ANALYSIS, CAREFUL COORDINATION BETWEEN THE VARIOUS TRANSFORMATION AND RESOURCE REDUCTION EFFORTS IS REQUIRED TO REDUCE THE POSSIBILITY OF VALUABLE INITIATIVES WORKING AT CROSS PURPOSES TO EACH OTHER, AS MIGHT BE THE CASE IF INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS ARE ERRONEOUSLY INTERPRETED AS DECISIONS OR DIRECTION.


TO PREVENT THIS FROM OCCURRING, A CONCERTED ANALYSIS HAS BEEN UNDERWAY SINCE THE TRANSFORMATION REPORT WAS SUBMITTED, INVOLVING BOTH CF AND DND PERSONNEL. THE GOAL OF THIS EFFORT HAS BEEN TO DETERMINE WHICH ELEMENTS OF TRANSFORMATION ARE ALREADY BEING IMPLEMENTED THROUGH THE STRATEGIC REVIEW, WHICH OPTIONS MERIT IMPLEMENTATION IN CONCERT WITH THE DEFICIT REDUCTION ACTION PLAN, AND WHICH OPTIONS HAVE SECOND AND THIRD-ORDER CONSEQUENCES THAT REQUIRE ADDITIONAL STUDY. THIS LEVEL OF ANALYSIS TAKES TIME, BUT ONLY WHEN IT IS COMPLETE WILL IT BE POSSIBLE TO DECIDE AND COMMUNICATE WHICH PARTS OF THE TRANSFORMATION REPORT SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED RIGHT AWAY, WHICH MUST BE PHASED IN OVER THE MEDIUM TERM, AND WHICH WILL BE DEFERRED.


THE CF IS CURRENTLY MOVING THROUGH A PERIOD OF HIGH OPERATIONAL TEMPO. ALONG WITH THE TRANSITION OF THE MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN, OUR NATIONAL CONTRIBUTION TO NATO EFFORTS IN LIBYA, AND MANY OTHER MAJOR AND MINOR MISSIONS AND EXERCISES, REVIEW OF THE TRANSFORMATION REPORT HAS BEEN TAKING PLACE DURING A PERIOD WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO GIVE THOSE OF OUR PEOPLE NOT DEPLOYED OR IN THE MIDDLE OF A POSTING A MUCH-NEEDED SUMMER BREAK WITH THEIR FAMILIES.


NEVERTHELESS, THE PACE AND COMPLEXITY OF ONGOING OPERATIONS REMINDS US OF THE NEED TO PUSH AHEAD WITH TRANSFORMATION, AND TO SEARCH FOR NEW AND INNOVATIVE WAYS TO ENHANCE CF CAPABILITY. MY STANDING PRIORITIES FOR THE DIRECTION OF THE CF ARE VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD: SUSTAIN THE ARMED FORCES OF TODAY, MODERNIZE THE FORCE OF TOMORROW, AND CARE FOR OUR PEOPLE, REGULAR AND RESERVE, CIVILIAN MEMBERS OF THE DEFENCE TEAM, AND OUR FAMILIES, INCLUDING THOSE WOUNDED IN OPERATIONS.


IN THE CHALLENGING FINANCIAL CONDITIONS FACED BY OUR COUNTRY, OUR ABILITY TO ACCOMPLISH THESE PRIORITIES RESTS ON OUR WILLINGNESS TO FIND BETTER WAYS TO DELIVER DEFENCE CAPABILITY, WHILE ACHIEVING SAVINGS AND REDUCTIONS MANDATED BY THE GOVERNMENT. ALONG WITH SUCH INITIATIVES AS THE STRATEGIC REVIEW AND THE DEFICIT REDUCTION ACTION PLAN, I REGARD THE TRANSFORMATION REPORT AS A KEY SOURCE OF IDEAS AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR REALIZING SAVINGS, WHILE REMAINING FIRMLY FOCUSSED ON OPERATIONS AND OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY.


OVER THE NEXT MONTHS, THE ANALYSIS PROCESS WILL BEGIN TO SHOW WHERE AND HOW THE TRANSFORMATION REPORT CAN BE ALIGNED WITH OTHER ONGOING REVIEW EFFORTS. AS THIS OCCURS, DECISIONS TAKEN REGARDING TRANSFORMATION WILL BE COMMUNICATED THROUGH THE CHAIN OF COMMAND, ACCOMPANIED BY SUPPLEMENTARY DIRECTION AND INFORMATION REGARDING IMPLEMENTATION TIMELINES. NOT EVERYTHING THAT APPEARS IN THE REPORT CAN OR WILL BE DONE. AS THE TRANSFORMATION TEAM ITSELF NOTES, THOUGHTFUL AND METHODICAL REVIEW OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS, IN CONCERT WITH THE PRIMARY STAKEHOLDERS, IS AN ESSENTIAL FOLLOW-ON ACTIVITY. ACCORDINGLY, AS YOU READ THE FULL TEXT OF THE REPORT, I WOULD ASK YOU TO REVIEW THE RECOMMENDATIONS JUDICIOUSLY, KEEPING IN MIND THE POINTS I HAVE MADE ABOVE.


IN CLOSE, I WOULD LIKE TO REITERATE MY APPRECIATION AND SATISFACTION WITH THE HARD WORK OF THE TRANSFORMATION TEAM IN SUCCESSFULLY DESCRIBING MANY OF THE CHALLENGES FACED BY THE CF, AND IN PROPOSING REMEDIAL MEASURES. MORE IMPORTANTLY, I WISH TO EXPRESS MY PRIDE AND CONFIDENCE IN THE ABILITY OF THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE CF AND DND, THROUGH TRANSFORMATION, TO LOOK WITHIN OUR ORGANIZATION WITH A CRITICAL EYE, TO FIND AREAS FOR IMPROVEMENT, AND TO EXPLORE NEW WAYS OF SUSTAINING AND ENHANCING OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY.

Source: (DWAN) http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2011/164-11_e.asp
*I have no military experience and I don't claim to have any. Anything posted by Frank1515 is from personal experiences with the recruiting process or my personal opinion. Please keep this in mind while reading my posts*

Offline old medic

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Christie Blatchford: Military has defied orders to increase army militia, report says
20 Sept 2011
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/21/christie-blatchford-military-has-defied-orders-to-increase-army-militia-report-says/

Canada’s bloated military bureaucracy has consistently defied explicit orders from government ministers and failed to increase the size of the army militia as directed.

The accusation is made in a scorching but carefully documented report done by pre-eminent military scholar Jack English for the Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute and obtained in advance of its release Wednesday by only a few media outlets, including Postmedia.

It is a “wretched saga” that Mr. English describes as marked by “sandbagging, obstruction, futile wheel-spinning, and endlessly wasted staff effort.”

Using statements made by a series of defence ministers and recommendations either from special commissions or in government “White Papers” — all of them pledging or urging that the part-time militia or reserves, whose members most proudly call themselves citizen-soldiers, would grow — Mr. English shows how bureaucrats and leaders within the regular army, who saw any move to increase the militia as a threat, stubbornly stymied the wishes of their political masters.

In the result, the size of the militia remains virtually where it was more than a decade ago, when then-Liberal Defence Minister David Collenette first called for the number of part-time reservists to be increased to at least 18,500, a number adopted by his successors, Doug Young and Art Eggleton, the latter even imposing a deadline of March, 2006, for that promised increase.

But as of March last year, Mr. English says, the militia part-time head count remained stubbornly at about 16,500 – and that includes the reallocation of about 1,200 medical and communications reserves which weren’t part of the militia before, a move Mr. English calls “sleight of hand.”

As for the man publicly seen as the saviour of the forces, popular former Chief of the Defence Staff Rick Hillier, Mr. English notes that while he “railed against the endless process of an already bloated headquarters,” Mr. Hillier “ended up leaving it larger and possibly more inefficient than ever.”

By 2003, National Defence Headquarters, or NDHQ as it’s called, had 5,600 uniformed personnel, about the same number of civilians and “an untold number of consultants” for a small regular force of 55,000, 20,000 civilians and 20,000 part-time reservists.

“The point in mentioning this,” Mr. English says, “is that National Defence Headquarters is today roughly as large as the entire militia.”

The former veteran, who has a masters in war studies from the Royal Military College in Kingston, a master’s in history from Duke University and a Ph.d from Queen’s University, paints a scenario that could have been taken from a script for Yes Minister, the old BBC sitcom about how an intransigent civil service regularly foiled the will of Parliament, or at least of Parliamentarians.

In Mr. English’s real-life example, functionaries fudged numbers, shifted units, counted bodies in novel ways or just plain stalled as they waited for the inevitable — and for them, the happy — day that ministers or even governments would change.

At one particular low point in 2009, Mr. English says, the Canadian Forces “in typical Byzantine, prevaricating gobbledygook” actually reported it couldn’t tell the government how many reservists it had because of difficulties counting numbers in its different information management systems.

The current Conservative government hardly emerges unscathed.

Contrary to various Liberal governments, where bureaucrats ignored or thwarted ministerial directives to grow the militia, the Conservatives simply reneged on their promise to increase militia strength by 10,000, Mr. English says, and then made matters worse by slashing reserve pay budgets in December of 2009.

And while “direct ministerial intervention” partially restored some of the pay cuts, “cancelled future training could not be resurrected.”

That minister, Peter MacKay, ordered the defence department to develop policies to prevent similar turmoil — chiefly, to stop militia pay cheques being used for other purposes — but as of February this year, Mr. English says, “the vice chief [of defence] reported he was still ‘working’ on the problem.… The matter of compliance still remains to be seen.”

How compliance, or following government orders, came to be an apparently voluntary matter in a country where the military is purportedly under civilian control makes for an astonishing and complicated story.

Mr. English’s report, formally entitled The Role of the Militia in Today’s Canadian Forces, is as much history lesson as indictment.

Shortly after the end of the Second World War, Canada had about 33,700 citizen-soldiers, while the regular army fielded about 14,000, and though the numbers fluctuated over the years, it wasn’t until 1952 that regulars outnumbered reservists for the first time in history.

This was the era of the Cold War, when as Mr. English says, “growing fear of sudden nuclear attack appeared to increase the need for forces-in-being” over a militia, and in Canada, national survival training or civilian defence became the militia’s priority.

In the Sixties, as the preoccupation with national survival lessened, the government slashed militia strength and shortly thereafter shut down many rural and small-town armouries.

It is the armoury, where citizens come to “parade” and learn the profession of arms on their own time, on weeknights and weekends, which is the real heart of the militia and where the precious bonds between military and civilian communities are forged.

The militia has never recovered from the losses of those armouries and the deep cuts, Mr. English says, with its role changing to one of augmenting the regular army, providing individual officers and soldiers to fill vacancies.

Successive years saw the government deem peacekeeping as the forces’ chief priority, and then bilingualism.

The militia, Mr. English says, was all but forgotten until 1995, when then-defence minister Collenette appointed a special commission on restructuring the reserves.

Led by Brian Dickson, the former chief justice of Canada and a distinguished veteran of the Second World War, the commission urged that the reserves again become the basis for recruitment and training of an expanded army – for mobilization, in other words.

Large standing armies, as Mr. English says, can’t be economically sustained in peacetime: Until he or she is called to full-time duty, the reservist costs 80% less than the full-time soldier. The solution was a smaller regular army, using the reserves for what Mr. English calls a “rainy day” expansion if necessary.

The government endorsed the mobilization concept and even raised the paid ceiling, but “in reality, however, militia strength continued to drop,” hitting a low in 1998 of about 9,900 part-time reservists.

Though the mobilization role of the militia was as recently as 2002 endorsed, it nonetheless “was gradually and surreptitiously swept under the carpet by the regular force military establishment,” Mr. English says.

In the end, he concludes, “promised militia growth has been thwarted at every important turn.”

He says that while conditions of service for reservists have improved, “little progress has been made in increasing militia strength,” particularly in what’s called “numbers paraded” or those “on the armoury floor.”

While reservists are now used to plug the holes in the regular army’s units – this is why the militia made up about 20% on average of troops deployed to Afghanistan – there are too few leaders left in the armouries to train recruits.

Mr. English recommends the militia be increased to 45,000 part-time soldiers, the formation of several new militia units and that National Defence Headquarters be slashed, a move also recommended recently by Lieutenant-General Andrew Leslie in his review of the Canadian Forces and by an independent commission in England, which this summer similarly urged the United Kingdom’s reserves be grown and given a broader role.

Such an expanded militia, with a solid “footprint” in towns across the country, would “create a true people’s army in which citizens who are inclined and able to serve their country in uniform would not be precluded from doing so,” Mr. English says.

“To not strengthen and reinforce the existing militia framework would be unwise as there is nothing more important for the army of a democracy than its link with its people.”
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Offline dapaterson

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We don't need more Reserve units.  Expansion of the current strucutre?   Perhaps.  But more LCols commanding rump companies?  No.  An Army Reserve of 45 000 would be 75 units of 600.  We're over 140 units already.

Dr English is also a staunch defender of the old school "county regiment".  He would be a great supporter of the Royal Buckshot Fusiliers, all 17 of them, who in 1963 had one guy fly to Germany for a week.  His affection for buckles, bangles and baubles outstrips his desire for an effective Reserve Force.
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Jack is a smart guy. Sometimes however he damages the case he is trying to make by inflammatory language and/or dubious claims. I do wonder what is the aim of the exercise and if it takes into account the present security climate? If he is proposing a reserve force of 45,000, what will this do to the regular force? What about the equipment and accomodation bill?

Hopefully the report will soon be available online for examination.

Offline GAP

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Too many bureaucrats, not enough troops

Paul Wells on the fierce resistance to Andrew Leslie’s plan to shift resources from Ottawa to the front lines
by Paul Wells on Friday, September 16, 2011
Article Link
 
Why was a Canadian military with 65,000 men and women on active duty and 25,000 reservists sorely tested by the task of keeping 1,500 soldiers in the field in Afghanistan? Why are Arctic sovereignty patrols a strain on the same military? The way Andrew Leslie sees it, it’s because the Canadian Forces’ tail has grown bigger than its teeth.

“We have the same number, or slightly more people, in Ottawa that we have in the Royal Canadian Navy—20,000,” Leslie was saying the other day. By “Ottawa,” he meant the personnel working in command and support functions at National Defence headquarters, not far from Parliament Hill.

So that’s about as many people riding desks as the Canadian Forces has riding boats. “And we have a lot of coastline,” said Leslie, who until the first week of September was a lieutenant-general in the Canadian Forces. “And we have really busy ships’ crews.”

The same rough ratio of desk assignments to field deployments works for the army, too, Leslie told Maclean’s in his first in-depth interview since he retired from the military. “We’ve got almost as many people in Ottawa as we have in the regular-force deployable army.”

But what’s most worrisome, Leslie says, is the trend line. In the six years from 2004 to 2010, spending on the Canadian Forces’ command and support “tail” has grown four times as fast as spending on the deployable fighting “tooth.” So during a period of strong public support for Canada’s military, while the army was fighting a deadly and challenging war in Kandahar, headquarters staff grew four times as fast as the fighting force did.

That’s the philosophy behind the final act in Leslie’s 30-year military career: a blunt, ambitious “Report on Transformation” that advocates reassigning thousands of personnel and billions of dollars worth of spending from administrative and support roles to the battlefield.
More on link
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Offline Gasplug

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I think I will reserve judgment until I read the report, but 45,000 reservists need a better role than "individual augments" to Reg Force units.

Bring back Corps '86!!!!! Ha!

My  :2c:.

Gasplug  :salute:

Offline hamiltongs

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Too many bureaucrats, not enough troops
“We have the same number, or slightly more people, in Ottawa that we have in the Royal Canadian Navy—20,000,” Leslie was saying the other day. By “Ottawa,” he meant the personnel working in command and support functions at National Defence headquarters, not far from Parliament Hill.
Nice. The author of a "sweeping" and "comprehensive" report on how to structure the CF got the size of the RCN wrong by a factor of two. Yes, the error just goes to reinforce his point in this case (i.e. NDHQ is big), but you have to wonder how much of his report was the result of careful study when he'd get such a basic number so wrong.

Offline Rifleman62

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In today's security climate we need military ready to go immediately, Regular Force or i.e. National Guard fighter sqns type units.  Not a chance of this concept ever happening in Canada. We may need more part time military, but we do not need more Reserve "regiments". There is enough "armored recce regiments" in LFWA for a Corps. There are two infantry "regiments" in Winnipeg that are tactically grouped and are less than one company strength.

I have always wondered at the US educational system that makes their National Guards so much smarter than the Canadian reserves, as the Americans operate helicopters, fighters, cargo aircraft and various complex land equipments.

Push the Reg F out of NDHQ and replace with Reservists who parade one weekend a month and every Tuesday night. Probably the CF will be more efficient if less harassed. 

« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 12:11:53 by Rifleman62 »
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Push the Reg F out of HDHQ and replace with Reservists who parade one weekend a month and every Tuesday night. Probably the CF will be more efficient if less harassed.
THEN who gets to tell who, "we're from HQ and we're here to help you"!  ;D
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Offline Jed

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Get the Public Service DND civilians out of the CF in downtown Ottawa. Surely all the almost retired military folks can go to work in a uniform, reserve and regular, and do many, most, all of these jobs just as efficiently. Aggressively pursue remodeling the Reserves into actual deployable units aka the USA.

This is pretty simplistic but in my opinion this is what Canada needs to do if we want effective Armed Forces to serve our great country.

My  :2c:
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Offline dapaterson

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Challenge is not in training operators; it's in training maintainers or contracting out maintenance capacity.  In the case of the Armd Corps, it's also in defining the role we want the Armd Res to perform.  First principle of war: Selection and Maintenance of the Aim.

Once we know what we're supposed to do, the rest is (relatively) easy.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Aggressively pursue remodeling the Reserves into actual deployable units aka the USA.

This is pretty simplistic but in my opinion this is what Canada needs to do if we want effective Armed Forces to serve our great country.

Simple in theory, perhaps less so for the execution.

Army National Guard and Army Reserve
Service Obligations, Methods of Fulfillment, Participation Requirements, and Enforcement Procedures (PDF)

Quote
Summary. This regulation defines Army National Guard of the United States and United States Army Reserve service obligations. It prescribes policies and procedures governing the various types of service obligations and participation requirements. There is a discussion on excused and unexcused absences and the policy on pregnancy. Finally, the regulation covers enforcement procedures regarding unsatisfactory participation.

Offline Good2Golf

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Nice. The author of a "sweeping" and "comprehensive" report on how to structure the CF got the size of the RCN wrong by a factor of two. Yes, the error just goes to reinforce his point in this case (i.e. NDHQ is big), but you have to wonder how much of his report was the result of careful study when he'd get such a basic number so wrong.

RCN website says "The navy is composed of approximately 8,500 regular and 5,100 reserve sailors, along with 5,300 civilian personnel."

So 18,900 (which is a Reg/Res/Civ figure) seems pretty close to the 20,000 Reg/Res/Civ figure in the NCR, does it not?


Regards
G2G

Offline CountDC

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Push the Reg F out of NDHQ and replace with Reservists who parade one weekend a month and every Tuesday night. Probably the CF will be more efficient if less harassed.

and I would love to see that reservist do my job in that time period considering I put in overtime doing a job that used to be done by 2 people. Some jobs do need full time staff. Not a problem though if they aren't able to do it - it is only millions of dollars lost.

No doubt there are positions that could be done away with but such a broad sweep would not help.  Reminds me of the argument some put out to put troops on the front line.  The suggestion was (and still is by some) to get rid of the RMS Clerks at NDHQ and replace them with cheaper civilian counterparts.  Problem with this?  When it comes time that you need someone to do a duty, work evening/weekend, stay late to type that letter/report that was put off until the last minute, etc etc or the civilians go on strike then what do you do?
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Offline Rifleman62

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It was a Joke, CountDC!
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Offline CountDC

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Get the Public Service DND civilians out of the CF in downtown Ottawa. Surely all the almost retired military folks can go to work in a uniform, reserve and regular, and do many, most, all of these jobs just as efficiently.

You may be right about doing the jobs but what would the benefit be? An increased military, more reservist lost by the units, lost of corporate knowledge, increase cost (the military members cost more than their civilian counterparts) + you have a lot more moves to pay for.


Seems to be a number of people that want to get rid of one or another group.  All the different groups provide a part of the overall functioning and are important.  The solution is not to get rid of all the civilians/regular force/reservist.  Each position needs to be assessed, determined if actually needed and if so should it be civilian/regular force/reservist and what level/rank should they be. An other area that needs to be looked at is the "contracted".  Seems to be a large number of jobs being done by contracted SME's over a lenghty period that maybe could be done by a military member - after all a fair number of these SME's are retired military that are the experts because of their military experience.

NDHQ, including all the commands, needs a complete and comprehensive review of every position. To do a review otherwise does not do justice.  You need to be able to say these positions can be cut because the same task can/is done by this position. Some positions may even need to be upgraded, shifted (pick mine!!) or even new ones created.

"When the power of love, overcomes the love of power....the world will know peace" - Jimi Hendrix [1942-1970]

Offline CountDC

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It was a Joke, CountDC!

on your part but it is not the first time I have heard something similar and they were being serious. I have heard every group targetted at some point.
"When the power of love, overcomes the love of power....the world will know peace" - Jimi Hendrix [1942-1970]

Offline Journeyman

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I have heard every group targetted at some point.
In which case, there's no need for you to be particularly sensitive.

Offline Jed

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CountDC, I was just giving my broad brush opinion and was in no way targeting any group for future economic 'slicing and dicing'. It has taken many decades to evolve to the point we are now at wrt NDHQ, DND, Reserves, Reg Force make up. The evolution will continue.

My experience in all the various organizations, and with how people behave in general, have helped me to formulate my previously stated opinion as to what general direction the CF should be taking wrt employment of personnel.
As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

Offline MCG

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NDHQ, including all the commands, needs a complete and comprehensive review of every position. To do a review otherwise does not do justice.  You need to be able to say these positions can be cut because the same task can/is done by this position. Some positions may even need to be upgraded, shifted (pick mine!!) or even new ones created.
The examination must also look at whole organizations to determine their relevance.

I can step into a staff and validate that every position within that staff is critical to the staff performing its function.  However, if I look at that staff as a collective and at what it provides to the larger organization, then I could well determine that that staff is uneccessary.  All those position could be reinvested into operational forces.

Offline hamiltongs

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RCN website says "The navy is composed of approximately 8,500 regular and 5,100 reserve sailors, along with 5,300 civilian personnel."

So 18,900 (which is a Reg/Res/Civ figure) seems pretty close to the 20,000 Reg/Res/Civ figure in the NCR, does it not?
Touche. I'm not sure most readers of the article would regard supporting civilian employees as being "in" the RCN, though, and comparing class "A" reservists (and I can tell you those numbers are far over current strength) to full-timers in Ottawa is a bit of a stretch. At the same time, a good chunk of those RCN civilians are based in Ottawa doing - gasp - HQ jobs. You could move them all from Ottawa to Halifax to make NDHQ smaller... but would the organization be any leaner?

The fixation on the number of positions in Ottawa is somewhat fatuous: up until 15 years ago we didn't have the three ECSs based there. Did moving MAR/AIR/LFCOM from Halifax/Winnipeg/St-Hubert make DND more or less efficient?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 14:57:58 by hamiltongs »

Offline Rick Goebel

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Jack is a smart guy. Sometimes however he damages the case he is trying to make by inflammatory language and/or dubious claims. I do wonder what is the aim of the exercise and if it takes into account the present security climate? If he is proposing a reserve force of 45,000, what will this do to the regular force? What about the equipment and accomodation bill?

Hopefully the report will soon be available online for examination.

I haven't read it yet, but it is available at http://www.opencanada.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/SSWG-Paper-Jack-English-September-2011.pdf.
Rick Goebel
Calgary