Topic: Iran unveils new fighter

[CDN Aviator]

They still have a few I think, but mostly, they just met the end of their useful life, from shoddy maintenance due to lack of parts, since they have no trade with the US. most are no longer air worthy.

I love it when someone speaks out of their rear end.......

In recent years the Iranian AF has cycled all its remaining F-14s through overhaul and upgrade projects at Iranian Aircraft Industries in Mehrabad.  Their structures have basicaly been replaced or reinforced and new avionic systems, wirring, comunications equipment and cooling systems have been added to the original airframes. These aircraft are now as close to "zero hours" as possible. As of 1999 (only 7 years ago) the Iranian AF had 29 Tomcats in active service and 28 in storage, waiting for upgrades.  After years of struggling with supporting the AIM-54 Pheonix missles, Iran ha been able to reverse-engineer the weapon and successfuly launch it 2 years ago.  As of 2005, the Iranian AF had 30 new missles in its inventory and low-rate production has continued since.  Back in 2003, a USAF AWACS aircraft tracked the movements of a single formation of no less than 16 Iranian F-14s.  Intelligence reports in the US have reliably assesed the number of F-14s in active service in Iran to be, in 2006 ,a total of 44 in operational condition.

You are wrong on all counts.

have a nice day

( conflicting information exists out there of course, globalsecurity.org paints a different picture.  I take my information from open source print so i cant link to it.  Information on numbers and state of Iranian AF Tomcats was obtained  through FOIA by Combat Aircraft magazine as well and matches publication i am using.)

[Argh to the Zee]

I wasn't talking out of my arse, I was taking my info from two reliable, decent sources. But if you know more then I do (which I don't doubt, since your a aviator, and I'm a civvy going into recce in 5 days) Then thanks for correcting me, as I like to know this stuff my self. I put some of my sources below, just to prove I don't make up info, but do actaully research things before I talk.


from global security. org "By 1987, however, the air force faced an acute shortage of spare parts and replacement equipment. Perhaps 35 of the 190 Phantoms were serviceable in 1986. One F-4 had been shot down by Saudi F-15s, and two pilots had defected to Iraq with their F-4s in 1984. The number of F-5s dwindled from 166 to perhaps 45, and the F-14 Tomcats from 77 to perhaps 10. The latter were hardest hit because maintenance posed special difficulties after the United States embargo on military sales.
"


from FAS " 79 Tomcats were delivered to Iran before the 1979 Revolution. They are normally grounded for lack of parts;"

[CDN Aviator]

I wasn't talking out of my arse, I was taking my info from two reliable, decent sources. But if you know more then I do (which I don't doubt, since your a aviator, and I'm a civvy going into recce in 5 days) Then thanks for correcting me, as I like to know this stuff my self. I put some of my sources below, just to prove I don't make up info, but do actaully research things before I talk.


from global security. org "By 1987, however, the air force faced an acute shortage of spare parts and replacement equipment. Perhaps 35 of the 190 Phantoms were serviceable in 1986. One F-4 had been shot down by Saudi F-15s, and two pilots had defected to Iraq with their F-4s in 1984. The number of F-5s dwindled from 166 to perhaps 45, and the F-14 Tomcats from 77 to perhaps 10. The latter were hardest hit because maintenance posed special difficulties after the United States embargo on military sales.
"


from FAS " 79 Tomcats were delivered to Iran before the 1979 Revolution. They are normally grounded for lack of parts;"

I have seen both sources you quote.  The simple fact that the USAF itself tracked 16 tomcats at one time disproves the Globalsecurity.org source.  I have recent pictures of Iranian F-14s and they are far from grounded.


(edited because i have no typing skills)

[tomahawk6]

I guess I was wrong, the damn thing does fly.

Interesting photo's.

[Pallas Athena]

I guess I was wrong, the damn thing does fly.

Interesting photo's.

Nice find but those photos show Azarakhsh (Lightning), the twin-tailled F-5. The Saegheh (Thunder) mentioned by Defense Industry Daily is a different aircraft.

[Freddy G]

About the F-14s:

I've read (I can try and track down the source, though I can't promise anything) that Iran has managed to produce their own replacement parts for their planes, although I doubt they're the same quality as the original parts. Like the flyboy said, they're flying and they can actually fight--I wouldn't want to go up against them, especially considering they have the Phoenix missiles, and longer range than the F-18.

[tomahawk6]

Pallas compare the pic's I posted and this video.

http://memritv.org/#

[geo [3]]

well.... considering all of Iran's friends and all the $$ they have, they could certainly purchase all the know how and technology needed.

Then again, the outer shell looks good, how do the inner guts measure up?

[Pallas Athena]

Pallas compare the pic's I posted and this video.

http://memritv.org/#

Thanks T'hawk. I couldn't play the vid but the photo is that v-tailled F-5.

The Iranians seem to enjoy intentional confusion. Lots of online refs list the MiG mockup and F-5 interchangably. One gives the v-tailled F-5 as a production aircraft with twin RD-33s (even the MiG LFI poject only has one RD-33 -- they must be talking about MiG-29s.

BTW: The "stealth" flying boat mentioned in the DID article was a Russian Eska 1. A1973 design powered by a Ural Cossack motorcycle engine -- pretty scary, eh?

[tomahawk6]

The video will play for explorer 6.0 and above.

[Pallas Athena]

Thanks T'hawk. I couldn't play the vid but the photo is that v-tailled F-5.

The Iranians seem to enjoy intentional confusion. Lots of online refs list the MiG mockup and F-5 interchangably. One gives the v-tailled F-5 as a production aircraft with twin RD-33s (even the MiG LFI poject only has one RD-33 -- they must be talking about MiG-29s.

BTW: The "stealth" flying boat mentioned in the DID article was a Russian Eska 1. A1973 design powered by a Ural Cossack motorcycle engine -- pretty scary, eh?

Thanks T'hawk, I managed to view it on someone else's computer using IE.

For a good description of all the current Iranian fighter projects see:
http://www.irandefence.net/archive/index.php/t-640.html

Here's a quick summary of known Iranian projects -

IACI Azarakhsh (Lightning): claimed to be domestically-produced F-5E copy with uprated J85 engines. Four prototypes 1997-1999 followed by order for 30-35 (but only 6-to-9 actually produced).

HESA F/B-22 project: F-5F converted to single-seater (with added fuel tank in the rear cockpit). Not built.

MATSA Sa’eqeh (or 'Azarakhsh-2'): v-tailled F-5 developed by IRIAF's 'Air Force Technology and Electronic Centre'. Iranian-built J85 engines are claimed to incorporate more advanced technology from Iran's F-14's TF-30s.

F/B-44 Iranian Lion: probably ficticious. Twin RD-33s, F-14 fire control.

AUC/IAMI Shafaq (Twilight): trainer/light strike project (joint Russia/Iran based on MiG LFI 2000). Originally twin J85, then one RD-33, and finally (when Russians pulled out) one Iranian-built J79. Some RAM in construction (although how visually steathy could a J79-powered fighter be!). Claimed first flight in 2005.

The Shafaq mockup is the aircraft that Defence Industry Daily mistook for the Sa’eqeh/'Azarakhsh-2'.

AUC M-ATF: single-seat light fighter version of Shafaq. Project only.

For those interested in Iran, the full descriptions are worth a read.

[big bad john (John Hill)]

Been had!

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2006918215318.asp

Iran's Fantasy Fighter
by James Dunnigan
September 18, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic

Iran has shown off a modified American F-5 fighter and proclaimed this new "Saegheh" as similar to the American F-18 jet fighter. This is not the first time Iran has run a stunt like this. But even with a redesigned tail and better electronics, the 1960s era F-5 is still a low cost, and low performance, aircraft. The F-5E, which the Iranians had when the Islamic revolution took over in 1979, is an 11 ton aircraft, with a max speed of 1,700 kilometers an hour, and a range of some 1,400 kilometers. It was armed with two 20mm cannon, and could carry about three tons of missiles and bombs. The Iranians have taken the basic F-5 frame and rebuilt it to hold two Russian engines. The Chinese did the same thing, and produced the J-8 (a twin engine MiG-21) that turned out to be not worth the effort.

Although the Iranians are using Russian components (if only because these are better than Chinese ones), they probably had technical assistance (for a price) from China. The Chinese have a lot of experience reverse engineering Russian warplanes, and developing variations. The Chinese are getting away from that, because they finally realized that all they ended up with was a lot of crap fighters. Now they are building a new air force with expensive, and high tech, fighters imported from Russia, or built under license.

The Iranians have become obsessed with these "propaganda weapons," where they hack something together from an existing Russian or American system, and proclaim it to be a "designed and manufactured in Iran." It's all rather pathetic, and it all began during the 1980s, when Iran and Iraq were fighting a nasty war. Some of the hacks worked, after a fashion. Iran created a longer range SCUD missile by the simple expedient of lengthening the missile with a larger fuel tank. This changed the flight characteristics of the missile, but since these things were being fired at city size (as in Baghdad) targets, it didn't matter. Actually, the Iranians didn't really need the longer range missiles, because Baghdad was pretty close to the Iranian border. Iran actually got the technology for these SCUD mods from North Korea, but Iranian press releases always touted the achievement as being the result of Iranian scientists and engineers. Also during the 1980s, Iran manufactured chemical weapons (mainly mustard gas). This was crude stuff, but the technology was fairly simple, and has gotten better in the last twenty years. However, Iran does not export any of its chemical weapons.

In the 1990s, Iran began building, or modifying, Russian armored vehicles. They also built a clone of the F-5E, calling it the Azarakhsh. The Iranians had dozens of damaged F-5s from their war with Iraq, and they reported that they had repaired, or rebuilt (into Azarakhsh) many of these.

Iran does have a large arms industry, and exports weapons to over fifty countries. But none of those fantasy weapons are exported. No, the stuff that is shipped to foreign customers largely consists of knockoffs of Russian and Chinese small arms, mortars and rockets. Iran also has a reputation of selling to anyone. If you have the cash, Iran will deliver, no questions asked.

[geo [3]]

Iran does have a large arms industry, and exports weapons to over fifty countries. But none of those fantasy weapons are exported. No, the stuff that is shipped to foreign customers largely consists of knockoffs of Russian and Chinese small arms, mortars and rockets. Iran also has a reputation of selling to anyone. If you have the cash, Iran will deliver, no questions asked.

all in the name of Jihad against the great satan.... don't you know

[Trinity]

The first night the planes attacked in Desert Storm 1 the US expected a fair amount of
casualties from their pilots of planes and helo (I recall something like 100 on the first night alone).

Luckily, the number was something incredibly low if not zero.  I'm not trying to quote for accuracy
but more to make a point.

If the US and her allies go to war with IRAN, tomcats, new fighters, new missiles or what not, we aren't
going to engage in a fair fight.  We are going in with hundreds of fighters and even if their technology
is better than ours (which is called into doubt) we will pick them out of the sky and destroy most of
their facilities before they can launch anything else.  And like in Desert Storm 1 a there will be a high
expected rate of casualty/loss of air craft but that's acceptable most likely  according to mission
paramiters. 

It won't take more than a day or two to eliminate Iranian Air with the sheer size and co-ordination
of US war planes (and her allies).  Not to mention Land or Air based Tomahawks being launched
at all airfields, hangers, etc.

Of course they have air defence, but I'm sure that would be part of any plan and taken into account
for loss of air craft.


So, in my ramblings, what I think I'm saying is  it's all nice and pretty that Iran can put these things
in the air but in an all out war against the US and her allies, these defenses cannot sustain themselves
past the first 48 hours of battle.

[geo [3]]

gutt feeling?
Like Iraq, Naval & Air assets would be rolled up in short order
Conventional Army formations probably won't fare much better BUT, Iran has been developping Hezbolah style militias across the countryside for years.... the prospect of another Iraq style nightmare looms if anyone goes down that route.