Author Topic: order of precedence  (Read 7977 times)

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colgan

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order of precedence
« on: July 31, 2001, 20:16:00 »
Just wondering what the numbers beside each unit in the combat arms part of the web site are for ? thanks :cdn:

Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2001, 21:56:00 »
Order of precedence is sort of like "seniority" for infantry regiments.

I say sort of, becuase it‘s sort of based on what type of unit it is, sort of based on how old it is, and sort of based on luck of the draw.

I‘m sure someone can step in at this point and give a more helpful description...

Cheers
Good decision making comes from experience, which comes from bad decision making. - Mark Twain

colgan

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2001, 15:57:00 »
does this mean that no. 1 is more important and get‘s more money than no. 50 :cdn:

Offline Gunner

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2001, 18:04:00 »
It‘s a historical designation and has nothing to do with resources.  Precedence is basedon the date the unit was raised, battle honours and most importantly, political clout.
Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

colgan

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2001, 18:40:00 »
what does this political clout have to do with your unit/ :cdn:

Offline Gunner

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2001, 20:40:00 »
Ask a VanDoo!   :D
Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

colgan

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2001, 21:33:00 »
Ah oui je comprende,english pig dog     hehehehe.... :cdn:

towhey

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2001, 22:33:00 »
In theory, order of precedence is based on the age of the unit... i.e. the older the unit, the higher in the order, the lower the number.

But.....

By tradition, Guards units are higher in precedence than non guards units.

By CF decree, all regular force regiments are higher in precedence than all reserve force regiments.

Because many units are the offspring of amalgamations, some of these are considered as old as their oldest parent unit.

Because some units lay claim to the heritage of extinct units, and have savvy political operatives on their side, they have also laid claim to higher precedence.

Conversely, some units who have just as legitimate (or more so) claims to the heritage of extinct units, but did not have switched-on leaders many years ago, have lost out on what may be a rightfully higher order of precedence.  (e.g. The Rocky Mountain Rangers who have established a link to, go figure, the "Rocky Mountain Rangers" formed during the Riel rebellion -- but that heritage has been scooped by the South Alberta Light Horse, so the venerable RM Rang only date back to the First World War.

All in all, it‘s a rather meaningless detail.  The only time it‘s ever important/useful is when determining whose regimental march to play first at mess dinners... they are traditionally played in order of precedence.

A good question.  Hard to answer.

Bloggins

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2001, 10:22:00 »
This is interesting. I have a vague recollection that the concept goes back to the days of pike and shot (or even further), and that it had to do with where your unit stood in the line of battle. The right-most place is traditionally the most prestigious, so that is where the unit with highest precedence would stand, and so on down the line. No idea where the right-of-the-line thing comes from. Someone once tried to tell me that it was because on the extreme right you didn‘t have a neighbour‘s shield to cover your flank (making it more dangerous), but that seems more than a little too cute to be true...

I guess the only place you would see something like that in practice nowadays would be in a garrison parade with more than one unit taking part. It would be appropriate in that case to determine order of march by precedence.

I knew that Guards units are at the top (closest to the sovereign, etc.), but do Royal units get an extra leg-up too?

Bloggins

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2001, 10:34:00 »
Answered my own question. Seeing RNFR down at number 47 there would indicate that the answer is no...

towhey

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2001, 14:18:00 »
You‘re right Bloggins...

The Right Marker on parade is traditionally a tall, strong, skilled, senior soldier, and the right of the line position on parade is traditionally reserved for the senior, "most effective unit" -- i.e. highest precedence or Guards unit.

I believe your history is correct, too.  In the Roman Legion days soldiers armed with a shield (left arm) and sword/pike/spear (right hand) would form line so each was partially protected by the shield of the man on his right.  This, of course, left the right most soldier more vulnerable than others.  Therefore, senior soldiers would take this place of danger and "honour".

colgan

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2001, 18:11:00 »
WOW! thats an excellent bunch of info. guys,very interesting thank‘s. :cdn:

Offline RCA

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2001, 23:05:00 »
The order of precedence (right of the line) is set out in one of the CF publications (age prevents me from remembering)

If I remember correctly (and I‘m sure if I‘m wrong, someone out there will correct me. This also goes against the arty principal of working off of positve information) right of the line goes to the the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery, then "Horse" Armoured, and next Royal Canadian Artillery, and then everyone else.

And before anyone says anything. YES, its is important who has right of the line. (especially for those who don‘t have it.

Before everyone jumps on my frame, remember this comes from a almost deaf, half blind gunner, so take it with a grain of salt.

Thats my pot stirrer for thislong weekend, everyone enjoy and keep the power dry.
Ubique

towhey

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2001, 16:01:00 »
And, don‘t forget that the Navy is the "Senior" Service... despite the fact that humans, including Canadians, were beating themselves over the head with sticks and stones on land long before they were drowing each other at sea.

*s*

colgan

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2001, 13:26:00 »
Why is there no order of precedence for the armor,engineers and artillary :cdn:

Offline Recce41

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2001, 14:18:00 »
The order is when the unit was formed. Ie the RCHA
were raise first in kingston, then the cav(Armour),
then the Inf.. The Engs came from the pioneers of the Inf first until they were formed in the 1800s. The right of the line is by seniority. RCHA,Armour, Inf, Eng, Support units. Also by birthday of regt, type. :eek:
Canadian Decoration,Chief of Defence Staff Commandation.Bold and Swift/Airborne

towhey

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2001, 22:17:00 »
There probably is seniority/precedence within the Armour corps.  

However, the Artillery all belong to the same regiment (Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery or Royal Regiment of Canadian Horse Artillery for the regular force mud gunners) so precedence between various gunner units is a moot point.  Same for the engineers, I believe.

Offline RCA

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2001, 15:05:00 »
Actually there is a difference with the order of precedece being RCHA, Armour (Horse units), RCA and then the rest.

RHCA has precence besae they are a horse unit, nit because thay are Reg F.

Precedance in the Arty (RCA) is from the date the unit was formed. I think the oldest is 3 Field RCA in New Brunswick.
Ubique

towhey

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2001, 07:58:00 »
Thanks RCA.  I learn something new everyday! *s*

rcrman

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2001, 10:44:00 »
A-Company, The Duke of Edinburgh‘s Company, First Battalion, The RCR

Right-of-Line of the Regiment. RCR‘s Canada‘s Senior Infantry Regiment. Order of Precedence within Infantry: ONE. Formed 21 December 1883 when the Infantry School was authorized. FYI below...for whomever gives a rats *** !

"Units of a regiment take senority according to the date of origin of the oldest unit of the regiment, e.g. Militia regiments having two or more battalions take precedence with the date of origin of the oldest battalion of the regiment of the Militia.
Units or Guards take precedence over other units in the infantry, regardless of the date of origin. Regular Force units take precedence over Reserve units.
The dates of organization assigned to regiments are those established by General Orders or parallel authority. Senority is based upon the date of origin as a regiment or battalion, not as local or independent companies of Militia, unless some other senority has been specifically authorized" p. 232.

Mitchell, Michael Major. CD,DUCIMUS: The Regiments of The Canadian Infantry. St. Hubert, PQ, 1992. ISBN # 0-9696421-0-5 (for those interested in the book...really cool!)   :cdn:  

As for Forces wide in the order of precedence:
1. Naval Operations
2. Armoured
3. Artillery (except that units of the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery take precedence over Armoured Branch units)
4. Military Engineering
5. Communications and Electronics
6. Infantry
7. Air Operations
8. Logistics
9. Medical
10. Dental
...and the list continues up to
22. Postal

colgan

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2001, 12:08:00 »
WOW!!!  :cdn:

rcrman

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2001, 01:58:00 »
Very interesting indeed!
    :warstory:

colgan

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2001, 18:21:00 »
Grubby Please tell me what is 11to 21. thanks buddy  :cdn:

rcrman

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Re: order of precedence
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2001, 02:43:00 »
Colgan,

Yeah sorry about that...just getting lazy from typing. O.k.

11. Land Electrical and Mechanical Engineering
12. Chaplain
13. Security
14. Legal
15. Administration
16. Band
17. Personnel Selection
18.Training Development
19. Physical Education and Recreation
20. Public Affairs
21. Intelligence

Remember this order was also made 01 Jan 1968. I don‘t know if this list has been updated, i‘m sure it has. I.E. # 19...that trade no longer around. PERI (Physical Education and Recreation Instructors) to bad...our forces need those guys I think. Note as well this is from the book Ducimus: The Regiments of The Canadian Infantry...I have included the info and ISBN above. Hope this list completes your request buddy!
Grubby   :cdn: