Author Topic: Avro Arrow RL-206  (Read 33783 times)

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Offline ChopperHead

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Avro Arrow RL-206
« on: September 11, 2005, 15:21:48 »
Just Wondering what peoples thoughts and opionins are on this. Do you think that there is still one Arrow out there that escaped the saws? Personally I think 206 is still kickin around out there somewhere. Maybe out in some old barn or something in Alberta just waiting for someone to stumble across it. Ok well that may be pushing it but still you never know. :cdn:
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Offline Chimo

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2005, 15:33:29 »
Yeah I saw Elvis in it last time I was in Vegas.
All my heroes are soldiers...and all my soldiers are heroes.

Offline Crimmsy

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2005, 00:44:07 »
Actually, 206's nose section is on prominent display in the Canada Aviation Museum in Ottawa. See photo here.

Good luck with your search for the other five though   ;)

Offline ChopperHead

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2005, 04:48:30 »
LOL you guys make it sound like Im nuts cause I think there is one out there. there is actually quite alot of people who belive that hell even in the movie they chose to go with that Idea.






Kyle.
No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair.
George S. Patton.

If you don't belive your country should come before yourself, then you can better serve your country by living somewhere else.
- Stompin Tom Connors

Offline Strike

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2005, 08:31:00 »
Actually, 206's nose section is on prominent display in the Canada Aviation Museum in Ottawa. See photo here.

Good luck with your search for the other five though    ;)

Actually, that nose cone is from one of the other aircraft, and was painted to say 206, specifically to dispel myths.  Found this out chatting with a museum coordinator in Shearwater, which was then confirmed by an older staff member in Ottawa.
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Online George Wallace

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2005, 08:43:43 »
Actually, that nose cone is from one of the other aircraft, and was painted to say 206, specifically to dispel myths.   Found this out chatting with a museum coordinator in Shearwater, which was then confirmed by an older staff member in Ottawa.

Ah!   More fire for the "Conspiracy Theorists".    :o
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Offline Strike

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2005, 08:53:22 »
Laugh if you will George, but RL 202 was the only other aircraft not to have its nose cone painted red prior to demolition.  If you were to Google for pics of "Death Row", you would not find 206 anywhere on the line.  One might say that this was because it was being fitted with the Iroquois, however, this had already been done.  The aircraft was scheduled for a test flight 2-3 days after the date the project was shut down.
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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2005, 08:58:51 »
Don't worry Strike


I still believe we'd be flying Arrows today, if this 'fiasco' hadn't happend.  The Arrow Project is 'Legend' and a great Canadian accomplishment.  I am sad that it turned out the way it did.  We also have the stories of the Bras D'Or.  And stories of other Canadian Military Technological advances, which just 'disappeared' due to government restraints.
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Offline Crimmsy

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2005, 09:13:58 »
Actually, that nose cone is from one of the other aircraft, and was painted to say 206, specifically to dispel myths.   Found this out chatting with a museum coordinator in Shearwater, which was then confirmed by an older staff member in Ottawa.

No kidding? Heh. Colour me educated.

Offline Strike

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2005, 11:53:25 »
Only a rumour, of course.  But still a cool one.
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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2010, 18:34:42 »
 ;D

Guess what I saw this afternoon at an undisclosed location?









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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2010, 21:06:12 »
;D

Guess what I saw this afternoon at an undisclosed location?

How'd you get a camera to Area 51?! We all know the Americans stole a prototype and store it at Groom Lake to make their fighters with like they did with Megatron in Transformers.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 12:29:45 »
Considering that the Arrow was freaking huge (for a fighter), it would be pretty hard to hide it, especially for 50 years.  I've also been around long enough to know that keeping a secret of this magnitude is pretty much impossible.  The Government doesn't cover things up, not because it doesn't want to, but because it is entirely incapable of doing so.
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Offline NinerSix

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 13:03:49 »
Considering that the Arrow was freaking huge (for a fighter), it would be pretty hard to hide it, especially for 50 years.  I've also been around long enough to know that keeping a secret of this magnitude is pretty much impossible.  The Government doesn't cover things up, not because it doesn't want to, but because it is entirely incapable of doing so.

Well, I don't think if it was spirited away it was done by or for the govt of the time.

What would be interesting to find out was what was the range of the aircraft, where could it have flown/possible runways, anything happened at those runways in the time frame quoted?
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Offline Jammer

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2010, 13:09:22 »
...it's the demo bird for the 2010 airshow season. SURPRISE!!
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline Petamocto

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2010, 13:29:03 »
The more research one does into it, the more that they'll find out it was far from the exact story as told on the CBC's Arrow movie production.

Diefenbaker wasn't anywhere near as evil as he appeared to be, and arguably even try to salvage some of it. 

To keep the performance you always hear about they'd have to refuel almost constantly with the day's technology, and none of the other systems that it was supposed to use were ready anyway.

Yes it is still something to be proud of as a Canadian and yes it was a great jet for its day, but to suggest that we'd still be flying them today is crazy.

At most it could have been viewed as the father of something like the F4 Phantom, but those aren't exactly first line anymore and they were a decade newer.

I'm as big of a fan of them as anyone...I've got the $20 coin, the Sushu painting/print, the posters, the models, etc, but let us be realistic here and not base our opinions on some docutainment.

Just like every other front line fighter (F22, F35), you almost break the bank of the country if you try to research and build these things unless you're at war.
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Offline karl28

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2010, 13:39:48 »
George Wallace

              Great photo thanks for sharing it . I wonder if that is the full size static display replica a group was working on a couple of years ago looks great that is for sure .

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2010, 14:05:43 »
Considering that the Arrow was freaking huge (for a fighter), it would be pretty hard to hide it, especially for 50 years.  I've also been around long enough to know that keeping a secret of this magnitude is pretty much impossible.  The Government doesn't cover things up, not because it doesn't want to, but because it is entirely incapable of doing so.

Which is exactly why every schoolboy knows about this one!

Kidding aside, I don't honestly believe that they saved one of them this way, but it does make for a great story.

Yes it is still something to be proud of as a Canadian and yes it was a great jet for its day, but to suggest that we'd still be flying them today is crazy.

Don't be so sure: had the project gone ahead the first production Arrows would have been going into service only slightly (if at all) earlier than the Sea Kings.

Offline Jammer

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2010, 15:29:06 »
The Arrow and the Phantom II were being developed at the same time. The F4 is still in frontline use with several countries.
Greece
Turkey
Japan
Germany
Iran (yes they still fly!)
South Korea
Spain

The Arrow's potential was unlimited and used technologies that already were proven in the CF-100. for example the retractable weapons pack. However there was enormous political pressure by the US on the Cdn Gov't of the day not to proceed with full scale production.
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2010, 15:55:14 »
;D

Guess what I saw this afternoon at an undisclosed location?

Looks like French markings on the side. Not one of the French Mirage 2000/4000 prototypes?
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2010, 16:16:28 »
Shutting the program down based on costs was acceptable, scrapping the aircraft and destroying drawings was not. The prototypes would have made useful testbeds and likely a limited testing program would have generated economic spinoff without major costs. Mind you the US Aerospace industry would lose out. Whoever ordered the aircraft scrapped should have been jailed.

Offline Jammer

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2010, 16:21:47 »
The US aerospace industry gained....by leaps and bounds. Many of the Canadians who helped design the Arrow moved on to NASA, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, Lockheed.

The legacy of the Arrow lives in in the F-15, F-16, F-18, and numerous experimantal aircraft of the 70, 80s, and 90s.
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline time expired

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2010, 17:01:34 »
PETAMOCTO, at last a I can totally agree with.

The Avro Arrow was a one trick pony that, had it gone into service ,would have been a very expensive answer
to a threat that had all but  disappeared,the manned bomber. It would also have required a tanker fleet that
Canada did not possess and given the cost of the Arrow itself  would  have been unable to afford.

The Arrow shares aerodynamic features with two other aircraft that were being developed at about the same
time,the British TSR 2 and the North American A3J Vigilante,these were a relatively large wing area and a long
slab-sided forward fuselage area.These features were very good for an aircraft operating at high altitude but
poor for the low altitude that these aircraft  would have been forced to operate in by a SAM equipped air defence
system.

The Vigilante was the only one of the three that entered service and it was found that at low altitude the gust
response loads placed on the crew and aircraft were so high as to render the crew almost unable to do their
jobs and would have resulted in structural damage to the aircraft in a very short time.This and a problem with
the nuclear delivery system caused the US Navy to turn the Vigilante into a recce platform and it did good work
in Vietnam.

I bring this up to counter the argument that the Arrow could have been used in any role other than a  North
American  interceptor,as an air superiority fighter or a ground attack it would have been next to useless due
its lack of maneuverability and the airframe limitations mentioned above.

All that being said we did soldier on with the F104 in the ground attack role for many year so anything is
possible,and it would have looked great at airshows.

                                                  Regards

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as occasionally to see a dead general
               field marshal slim

Offline Baden Guy

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2010, 17:10:02 »
Many books have been written on the Arrow and it's fate.
The link is to Amazon.ca and some of those books.

Offline Jammer

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Re: Avro Arrow RL-206
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2010, 17:11:54 »
However the F-15 was conceived as a purely air superiority fighter with the tagline "Not a pound for air to ground."

The F-15E Strike Eagle seems to put to rest the argument that the Arrow would never have been used (or could have), been used in this role.
The F-104 was the worst possible choice for an air to ground platform. There are many good men who paid the ultimate price for this folly.
What could possibly go wrong?