Author Topic: The Congo  (Read 5653 times)

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Offline Jim Seggie

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The Congo
« on: August 23, 2010, 15:59:25 »
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 16:20:10 »
Someone with a bleeding heart will I'm sure...question is will it be the NDP and will they scream like little girls for us to take over the mission?  Of course, the Congolese government doesn't want us there anyway...hey, didn't we have a problem with that place back in the 60's?  And didn't they have a bit of a problem with us?  Maybe I'm just getting my history screwed up.

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 16:35:07 »
Hey, there's big changes happening.

Why just last month, the UN Security Council voted unanimously to change the mission's title from United Nations Mission in the Democratic Republic of Congo (MONUC) to United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (MONUSCO).

If that doesn't sort out the rebels and the Congolese Army, I don't know what will   :nod:

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 17:09:22 »
Victory declared, peace in our time.  now back to headquarters for debriefing and cocktails.
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 18:43:31 »
I would not be at all surprised if we found ourselves in the Congo over the next few years
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 18:53:14 »
While I certainly make no effort to speak for the CF or for anyone else, I strongly get the feeling that if Canada ever sends us on a blue beret mission like they did in the 90s (or earlier), they are going to get very different mission results.

Even with oppressive ROE, I just don't know of anyone I serve with that would allow that sort of thing to happen nearby without making all efforts to stop it.

I'm not saying that peacekeepers in the 1990s didn't do a great job, just that most of today's soldiers went through training and went through their first tour in a full-combat environment.  Those factors, plus listening to lessons learned like those from Gen Dallaire himself, and you end up with (I believe) a force on the ground that won't be content with "Please stop what you're doing or I'll write it down".

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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2010, 19:08:53 »
While I certainly make no effort to speak for the CF or for anyone else, I strongly get the feeling that if Canada ever sends us on a blue beret mission like they did in the 90s (or earlier), they are going to get very different mission results.

Even with oppressive ROE, I just don't know of anyone I serve with that would allow that sort of thing to happen nearby without making all efforts to stop it.

I'm not saying that peacekeepers in the 1990s didn't do a great job, just that most of today's soldiers went through training and went through their first tour in a full-combat environment.  Those factors, plus listening to lessons learned like those from Gen Dallaire himself, and you end up with (I believe) a force on the ground that won't be content with "Please stop what you're doing or I'll write it down".


If, more likely when we get involved in the slow motion explosion (one little fire after another, at ever increasing frequencies until, for all intents and purposes, the whole place has exploded) in Africa it is likely that, despite the blue berets, the ROE will be pretty robust. I do not detect any political or bureaucratic stomach for even the slightest risk of another Rwanda. That being said, people are fickle and governments tend to react to public opinion, not lead or form it. The spark that ignites public outrage, and consequential demands to "do something, now (even if it's wrong and even if we'll hate it tomorrow)" could be just something like this incident - inconsequential, in and of itself (I apologize to those who find that cruel, but ...) but able to inflame uninformed, unthinking public opinion and, subsequently, to force governments to react. Further, bad leadership, a hallmark of UN missions - even when they are led by Canadians, can also have the effect of making even good troops, with good, robust ROE look bad.

I have a hunch that the situations tend to dictate their own outcomes - much more so, anyway, than do the troops on the ground.
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 19:15:20 »
Peacekeeping in Africa can be just as messy as it is in Afghanistan. I'm all for logisitcal support but putting first line troops in a peacekeeping role is a waste of resources. The Indians and others want to do this type of work and its cheaper to pay them to do it.

Quote
UN peacekeepers hacked to death in Congo
By Africa correspondent Andrew Geoghegan

Updated Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:20am AEST

A rebel attack in the eastern Democratic Republic of Congo has killed three Indian peacekeepers and injured several more.

Rebels believed to belong to the Mai Mai, a Congolese militia group, ambushed an Indian army peacekeeping post.

Between 50 and 60 rebels attacked the military camp in the middle of the night.

Three Indian soldiers were hacked to death with knives and machetes while seven others suffered injuries.

The peacekeeping force opened fire on their attackers, driving them into the jungle.

The victims were all serving with the United Nations stabilisation force in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

It is unclear what prompted the brutal attack, although the Mai Mai have been responsible for ongoing violence in the region in recent years.

 

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 19:40:45 »
The Indians and others want to do this type of work and its cheaper to pay them to do it.

Ah yes - the old send in the Colonial troops 'cus it looks messy.  That worked out real well for the British and Roman Empires...
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Online tomahawk6

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 19:54:32 »
What can be done with a battalion task force ? The Indians have plenty of manpower which is their strength. The US is not going to deploy a division in the Congo and keep it there for an extended period of time. The Indians dont have global commitments that we have. So its not "send in the colonials",rather its an acknowledgement that the ABCA countries dont have large standing armies like we used to. The Indians and Chinese do. Of the two I would rather see large numbers of Indians doing the business.

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 20:01:28 »
If anyone is going into Africa in any useful strength then I am pretty sure they will be working alongside a larger Chinese contingent. China has more interests in Africa than just resources ~ any solutions to Africa's manifold problems will have a Chinese component to them.
 
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline M_B

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2010, 23:01:54 »
Pardon this dated article:  http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/04/30/canadian-military-congo-deployment.html

While I do not have the breadth of knowledge to tackle this subject, I do want to say that I don't think we're heading to the Congo as it seems far too politically messy. And while there have been strong commitments to by our government to pull out of Afghanistan next year, the opposition has said they would continue our combat role. A fall election could change many things... and I don't think that means we're heading to Africa.

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 06:30:00 »
MGB is correct: Congo, all of Africa in fact, is politically messy and there is no discernible will in Ottawa, discernible to me anyway, to jump from one mess to another. I doubt that the Liberal 'world view' is or will be much different from that of the Tories; the NDP will continue to demand that we offer "all aid short of help." But I reiterate my point that events (and ill-informed public opinion about the relative importance of those events) tend to drive policy, not vice versa.
 
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline Marlowe

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 22:42:09 »
The Congo mission was floated a few months back and the decision was made that it was a frikkin' mess and we need to step back. However, that was based on a desire to get a command. By the time we are out of Afghanistan and the UN comes calling again, someone might be stupid enough to commit resources.

Unfortunately, due to Canada's interests in Sudan, it is likely that we'll get pressured into beefing up either UNAMID or--more likely--UNMIS. Neither is a good idea. I think UNAMID might be the best bet. Freedom of Movement restrictions, inability to make a difference, hated by all sides, sure, but UNMIS has all of the above, plus a front row seat to a country falling into anarchy, no matter how much aid money we pump in there.
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 10:31:11 »
... bad leadership, a hallmark of UN missions - even when they are led by Canadians, can also have the effect of making even good troops, with good, robust ROE look bad.

I have a hunch that the situations tend to dictate their own outcomes - much more so, anyway, than do the troops on the ground.



Further to my comment, this, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, illustrates why the UN is ill suited to keep the peace unless and until there is a real, stable, peace to be kept:

 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/un-peacekeepers-unaware-of-congo-mass-rape-for-two-weeks/article1685840/
Quote
UN peacekeepers unaware of Congo mass rape for two weeks
Despite being in the area of rebel-occupied Luvungi town, ‘horrific’ rapes of at least 154 women and children escaped detection

Edith M. Lederer

The Associated PressPublished on Thursday, Aug. 26, 2010

The top UN envoy in Congo said Wednesday that two peacekeeping patrols were not informed by villagers that mass rapes were taking place and the United Nations is now working to improve communications and prevent any recurrence.

Roger Meece, the new UN special representative, said peacekeepers didn't learn about the “horrific” rapes of at least 154 Congolese civilians for nearly two weeks, which showed that the force's actions to protect civilians were insufficient and need to be improved.

He said one idea being pursued was to have villages report to the UN’s forward operating base at Kibua every day. If the force did not receive a report, he said, it would assume there was a problem and send a patrol to investigate.

Meece gave the most detailed account of the U.N.’s actions since Monday's report that Rwandan and Congolese rebels gang-raped nearly 200 women and some baby boys over four days not far from Kibua in eastern Congo's mining district. He spoke to reporters at U.N. headquarters by videoconference from Goma in eastern Congo.

Will F. Cragin of the International Medical Corps said Monday that aid and UN workers knew rebels had occupied Luvungi town and surrounding villages the day after the attack began on July 30. He told The Associated Press his organization was only able to get into the town after rebels ended their brutal spree of raping and looting and withdrew of their own accord on Aug. 4.

The UN wasn't made aware of the attacks until more than a week later, despite the fact that UN patrols had been in Luvungi twice after the attacks began.

Pressed on why two UN patrols learned nothing about the mass rapes, Mr. Meece said he could only speculate, noting that communication is always a problem in Congo.

“There is, of course, a significant amount of cultural baggage ... associated with rapes in this area, as well as elsewhere.” he said. “Is it conceivable that the local villagers were afraid of reprisals if they reported anything to MONUSCO? Possible. Is it conceivable that they were ashamed of what has happened in some form? That's possible.”

“I can only speculate as to what may have been the reasons, but I know that these can be very powerful in the local society and environment,” he said.

According to an American aid worker and a Congolese doctor, the rebels gang-raped nearly 200 women and some baby boys.

Mr. Meece, a former U.S. ambassador to Congo, said the UN peacekeeping force, known as MONUSCO, first received information on July 31 that combatants from the Rwandan rebel FDLR group were in the area, but there was “no suggestion at this point of an attack, much less of ... the mass rape in the villages in the area.”

The following day, the UN received information that Congolese Mai-Mai rebels were also moving to the area, probably to establish a roadblock of commercial traffic to get money, Mr. Meece said.

The UN learned later on Aug. 1 that a roadblock had been established, he said.

Early on Aug. 2, Meece said, a Congolese army patrol took off from its base at Mpofe toward Kibua and the UN later learned that the roadblock was removed, that Congolese soldiers and “remnants” of the rebel groups exchanged fire, and that the number of rebels in the area “dramatically decreased.”

The UN had no direct contact with the Congolese patrol “nor was there any information to suggest that there was large-scale rape,” he said.

A UN patrol also stopped in the village of Luvungi on Aug. 2, he said, “but the village people did not make any reports of what had happened in the preceding days.”

Mr. Meece said another MONUSCO patrol stopped in Luvungi on Aug. 9 and “once against there was no information that rapes had taken place, no less mass rapes.”

“The first reports that we got of the widespread rape ... was on Aug. 12” from the International Medical Corps, and the following day a U.N. Joint Human Rights and protection team went to the area to investigate.

Mr. Meece said the UN force is reviewing its patrol activities and considering holding meetings with local officials in the villages to increase contact.

He said about 80 peacekeepers based at Kibua are responsible for 300 square kilometres.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has sent Assistant Secretary-General for Peacekeeping Atul Khare to Congo to help investigate. He also sent his Special Representative for Sexual Violence in Conflict, Margot Wallstrom, to take charge of the U.N.’s response and follow-up to the attacks.

Mr. Ban also urged the U.N. Security Council on Wednesday to “seriously consider what more we can do” in Congo and elsewhere to protect civilians during peacekeeping operations.


If the UN really wants to “protect civilians” it is going to have to insert a large, militarily capable peacemaking force. Those two attributes require that e.g. the African Union is out, but who is to be ‘in?’ Britain, France, Canada and Australia, for example, do not have enough forces for large scale peacemaking in a huge country like Congo (2,345,409 km2 – twice the size of Ontario which has an area of 1,076,395 km2). Maybe we do have to call on China and India. We certainly should call on someone because the current UN force is inept - that is we should call on someone if we actually give a damn.



Edit: typo
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Offline Petamocto

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2010, 18:02:22 »
.... Those two attributes require that e.g. the African Union is out, but who is to be ‘in?’...

Too many African countries to keep track of, but in Sudan I know the big thing was that the UN wasn't even invited* and their government stated that any intervention had to be African-only troops.

At least the Congo seems like it's more open to having larger external forces there.
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2010, 19:27:58 »
What is lacking is a clear definition of what our national interest is in spending blood and treasure in the Congo (or Haiti or Afghanistan or the Sudan or....)

Even though it seems pretty clear to me why we should be in Afghanistan (promote stability in a region literally ringed with nuclear armed nations, and prevent the use of the territory to shelter terrorist groups), this was never clearly and forcefully communicated to the public, which means we are now backed into a corner of leaving by an arbitrary date rather than according to some clearly defined metric. (If I were Generalissimo, we would not leave until at least 2015, when the first batch of the 6 million children who started going to school in 2005 graduated and there was now a critical mass of educated people to actually run things in Afghanistan. You may choose your own measure of success). I cannot even imagine what sort of achievable metric we could use in the Congo given our tiny resource base; even providing logistical and C3I support to a vastly larger Indian contingent still begs the question: What are we supposed to achieve there?

I suppose we *could* decide that being totally ruthless is in order; we choose one warlord and train and equip his army to defeat all opposition so then we at least know who we are dealing with, but optics aside, what is to stop other nations from training and equipping their favorite warlords and fighting us by proxy?

In the end, going into Africa will be like jumping into a pool of quicksand. These so called humanitarians want us to go in there with no plan, no end state, minimal resources and expect us to achieve a miricle. They will also be the very first to scream in outrage as we take casualties or engage hostile militias, terrorists and local warlords in the Congo; a loose/loose situation all around.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2010, 23:15:20 »
If the UN really wants to “protect civilians” it is going to have to insert a large, militarily capable peacemaking force. Those two attributes require that e.g. the African Union is out, but who is to be ‘in?’ Britain, France, Canada and Australia, for example, do not have enough forces for large scale peacemaking in a huge country like Congo (2,345,409 km2 – twice the size of Ontario which has an area of 1,076,395 km2). Maybe we do have to call on China and India. We certainly should call on someone because the current UN force is inept - that is we should call on someone if we actually give a damn.

The whole of the Congo may be twice the size of Ontario, but most of the action is in the eastern/central half of the country.  That being said, it is still a massive area to cover.  The attached map gives some indication of the current UN troop deployment.  Again making a comparison with Ontario, imagine the forces needed to control Northern Ontario (which has a better road system and probably easier terrain) if half (or somewhat less) of a population of 52 million was spread out over that region.  Though there are some large population centres, it is still a very rural and remote area.  I readily agree that the current UN force is inept, however, I can also understand some of the challenges they face.  For instance, mobility off the main roads can be exceedingly difficult.  Being able to provide a reasonable presence to protect civilians is (IMO) impossible with the current troop levels, even if those troops were “ept”.  There has been as much "mandate creep" as there is usually "mission creep".  Originally, the main focus of the force's mandate was to be similar to:
Quote
In the area of stabilization and peace consolidation in the DRC, MONUC would, among other things, assist the Government, along with international and bilateral partners, in strengthening its military capacity, including military justice and military police; support the reform of the police; develop and implement a multi-year joint United Nations justice support programme in order to develop the criminal justice chain, the police, the judiciary and prisons in conflict-affected areas and a strategic programmatic support at the central level in Kinshasa; support the Congolese Government in consolidating State authority in the territory freed from armed groups.
Protecting the population has now became the primary mandate of the mission.  Expecting the DRC military (probably as incompetent as they are corruptible) to join them as protectors of the population would be a pipe dream.

India is currently the largest contributor of troops to the mission (over 20%) including the present force commander.
http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/monusco/facts.shtml
Quote
Current strength
These figures reflect the strength of MONUC, the preceeding UN Mission in the DRC, as of 30 June 2010

20,586 total uniformed personnel
   - 18,653 military personnel
   - 704 military observers
   - 1,229 police (including formed units)
982 international civilian personnel
2,787 local civilian staff
641 United Nations Volunteers

Note: Statistics for international and local civilians are as of 31 May 2010

Country contributors

Military personnel
Bangladesh, Belgium, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Canada (10 pers), China, Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, France, Ghana, Guatemala, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Jordan, Kenya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Mongolia, Morocco, Nepal, Niger, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Romania, Russian Federation, Senegal, Serbia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Switzerland, Tanzania, Tunisia, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay, Yemen and Zambia.

Police personnel
Bangladesh, Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, Egypt, France, Guinea, India, Madagascar, Mali, Niger, Romania, Russian Federation, Senegal, Sweden, Togo, Turkey, Ukraine and Yemen.

Too many African countries to keep track of, but in Sudan I know the big thing was that the UN wasn't even invited* and their government stated that any intervention had to be African-only troops.

At least the Congo seems like it's more open to having larger external forces there.

There is a significant difference between the two situations.  Khartoum probably doesn’t want robust foreign military forces acting as a buffer between warring parties on its territory because of their involvement in Darfur, even if peripherally.  The UN force in the Congo, however, is there to support the government, not stand between it and other actors.  The Kabilas (father and son) probably had enough of the military forces of other African nations being on their turf.  It was fine when Uganda and Rwanda supported them in their successful rebellion against Mobutu, but they didn’t want to leave when the older Kabila (before his assassination) told them to go home.  The ensuing “Second Congo War” was mainly to get them to leave.  When that conflict ended (well at least when the Lusaka Ceasefire Agreement was signed) there were also forces from Zimbabwe, Angola, Namibia and Chad (as well as Sudan and Libya on the edges) inside the country.  The Kinshasa government may suspect that a stabilization force exclusively from AU nations may not be able (or want) to support it against the other anti-government armed bodies remaining (or want to leave when the mandate is fulfilled, like most of the other African nations which have helped them in the past).

I suppose we *could* decide that being totally ruthless is in order; we choose one warlord and train and equip his army to defeat all opposition so then we at least know who we are dealing with, but optics aside, what is to stop other nations from training and equipping their favorite warlords and fighting us by proxy?

Whether good or bad, we (in the form of the UN) have already chosen; surprisingly, the winner is the “legitimate” government of the Democratic Republic of Congo.  How it got to be the legitimate government and has been for several years is as convoluted and bloody as any political process in Africa.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 23:31:19 by Blackadder1916 »
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2010, 23:21:30 »
What is lacking is a clear definition of what our national interest is in spending blood and treasure in the Congo (or Haiti or Afghanistan or the Sudan or....)

What do you consider to be our vital national interests?
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2010, 03:14:34 »
What do you consider to be our vital national interests?

The million dollar question.
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2010, 13:42:05 »
For an interesting view on the topic of interests and values, see Michael Ignatieff's 2004 Skelton Lecture here:

http://www.international.gc.ca/odskelton/ignatieff.aspx?lang=eng

The rest of the lectures are available here:

http://www.international.gc.ca/odskelton/lectures-conferences.aspx?lang=eng&menu_id=8&menu=R
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2010, 14:09:45 »
For an interesting view on the topic of interests and values, see Michael Ignatieff's 2004 Skelton Lecture here:

http://www.international.gc.ca/odskelton/ignatieff.aspx?lang=eng

The rest of the lectures are available here:

http://www.international.gc.ca/odskelton/lectures-conferences.aspx?lang=eng&menu_id=8&menu=R



...
Ignatieff came to the (Canadian political) fore after a barn-burner of a speech at the 2005 Liberal convention. He can be engaged and passionate, as he (evidently) was in Toronto in 2005. Perhaps his problem, in the intervening five years, is that he really doesn’t believe in what he’s selling. The Liberal brain trust is looking for another Trudeau. I do not think Iggy Iffy Icarus is that – not in his heart and mind, anyway. He is, I guess, a classical liberal pragmatist, in the mould of St Laurent and Pearson, not an ideologue like Trudeau or Harper, nor a retail politician like Mulroney or Chrétien. But I doubt the core of the Liberal Party of Canada Toronto has room for any classical liberal pragmatists.

Big L Liberal and liberal have been at odds since 1967.

And see here.

It is interesting to try to tie the current Michael Ignatieff, Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, with the Ignatieff of 2004/05 who could say …

”Our … task as Canadians is to preserve our national independence. We face a geopolitical reality unlike any other country: The greatest challenge to our sovereignty comes not from our enemies, but from our best friend. Canadian-American relations are the central issue of Canadian politics in the next generation. Liberals have always said no to anti-Americanism … We are reliable neighbours, good friends, but firm defenders of our sovereignty … But we cannot defend our sovereignty with sermons. We must have our own military, intelligence-gathering capacity, immigration and border controls, control of our air space. Our independence depends on our being a credible partner in the struggle to keep North America safe from terrorist attack. Like it or not, we are next door to the primary target of global terrorism. We must invest to ensure we are never a terrorist transit point or a terrorist haven … In the world's failed and failing states, the most urgent human need is security. People at the mercy of tyrants and gunmen need protection first of all. To protect them, we have to have the capacity to fire back. We do not want to repeat Rwanda … We owe this to our men and women in uniform. And to the world.” (Speech to the March 2005 Liberal national convention)

and

”Defence of our independence should dictate the terms of our co-operation with the Americans on immigration, border security and continental defence. Our independence cannot be defended by anyone else: so we have to pay for it, with a national defence capability that can secure our borders and protect our people, in alliance with others, but in fundamental independence of their capabilities and capacities. We should not sell our co-operation cheaply, but we can only strike the right bargain if we have adequate capabilities. I line up squarely with those -- like Jack Granatstein-- who have been saying for years that we do not spend enough on intelligence, border security and national defence, and we do not know what to spend it on. We need to spend with a vital interest in mind: maintaining, securing and defending the territorial integrity of Canada and the safety of Canadians at home and overseas. Peacekeeping in Haiti and Afghanistan is worthwhile, but peacekeeping alone cannot provide the sole content of our defence posture. We need to keep our own borders secure; we need special forces capability for rescue and counter-terrorist activity. We need to substantially bolster our intelligence-gathering and evaluation capabilities. However we reconfigure our armed forces, and I am no defender of the separate identities or procurement budgets of our forces, we need to maintain combat-capable land forces and we still need to have boats to secure our coast lines and planes to patrols our skies. Independence has to guide our defence decisions. We do not want to arrive at a situation where Canadian lives are in danger, at home or abroad, and we have to be dependent on someone else's capabilities, whether diplomatic, intelligence or military, to get us out of trouble. A helping hand from a friend is one thing, dependency is another. A helping hand to a friend is one thing -- and so we should provide security co-operation, border monitoring in a close and co-operative manner -- but subservience is another. Negatively, we must not be dependent, and we must not be subservient. Positively, we must stand on our own two feet.” (2004 Skelton lecture)
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2010, 14:19:41 »


And see here.

It is interesting to try to tie the current Michael Ignatieff, Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, with the Ignatieff of 2004/05 who could say …

And that guy is the one that I believe the country needs right now - just wish I could find him!
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2010, 15:12:56 »
And that guy is the one that I believe the country needs right now - just wish I could find him!


Too true ... because we aren't allowed to say +1 any more.

It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
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Offline GAP

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2010, 16:21:31 »

Too true ... because we aren't allowed to say +1 any more.

Uhhh.....ERC....it was you who complained about the (unmentionable number with the plus sign).... ;D
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2010, 15:50:15 »
Post  at Unambiguously Ambidextrous:

The Globe and Mail’s stinking agenda, Congo section
http://unambig.com/the-globe-and-mails-stinking-agenda-congo-section/

Quote
In a story he clearly worked hard to create, ace agenda-ist Geoffrey York in Johannesburg singles out Canada for not helping the UN peacekeeping force with helicopters.  What about the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden etc., etc., etc.? Then there’s Portugal, eh?  None of them seems to want to anwer the call either...

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2010, 23:08:08 »
Looking a bit up post, I am somewhat surprised that Edward did not bring out St. Laurent's 1947 Grey Lectures as a starting point to define our "national interests".

To date I haven't seen anything to compare, and thinking about this I can see the influence in some of the measures we have taken since (memberships in various multilateral organizations like the OAS, WTO etc., the FTA and NAFTA in the economic sphere and our increasing engagement in military missions since the 1990's).

Maybe if Mr Ignatieff could find a phone booth and emerge as the 2005 version, or some deep thinker out there could start the debate for real, then we would be able to choose which missions to participate in in the knowledge that they are important to Canada, and that we have the will and resources to see things through.

Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2010, 10:23:58 »
Why the Globe and Mail is not a newspaper, Part 2 (Congo section)
http://unambig.com/why-the-globe-and-mail-is-not-a-newspaper-part-2-congo-section/

Mark
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Offline Jim Seggie

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2010, 10:41:36 »
What will be the cost in human terms? OSIs, physical wounds, broken relationships, suicide, susbtance abuse...
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Re: The Congo
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2010, 22:00:41 »
Deja vu all over again - Globe & Mail again picks on Canada doing nothing about Congo:
Quote
It has become a grim Christmas ritual: hundreds of innocent civilians massacred in remote corners of Africa by the Lord’s Resistance Army, one of the world’s cruellest and bloodiest guerrilla forces.

Now, fearing a Christmas attack for the third consecutive year, the United Nations is mobilizing 900 peacekeepers to protect villages in Congo, and the United States has promised its own action against the LRA.

It has become a grim Christmas ritual: hundreds of innocent civilians massacred in remote corners of Africa by the Lord’s Resistance Army, one of the world’s cruellest and bloodiest guerrilla forces.

Now, fearing a Christmas attack for the third consecutive year, the United Nations is mobilizing 900 peacekeepers to protect villages in Congo, and the United States has promised its own action against the LRA.

(....)

“It is unbelievable that world leaders continue to tolerate brutal violence against some of the most isolated villages in central Africa, and that this has been allowed to continue for more than 20 years,” said Marcel Stoessel, head of the Congo office of Oxfam, one of 19 humanitarian and human-rights groups that issued a report this month calling for tougher action against the LRA.

“This Christmas, families in northeastern Congo will live in fear of yet another massacre, despite the presence of the world’s largest peacekeeping mission,” he said.

The LRA has emerged as a classic test of the “right to protect” doctrine, championed by former Canadian foreign minister Lloyd Axworthy and others. The concept of “right to protect” suggests that the international community has the right to intervene in sovereign states to prevent atrocities and protect civilians. Canada took a leading role in pushing the concept and getting it adopted at a world summit in 2005 after the furor over the UN’s failure to act during massacres in Rwanda and Kosovo in the 1990s. But the concept was dropped when Stephen Harper became prime minister in 2006 ....
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2011, 16:13:08 »
Some very wise words from Louis Delvoie in the current issue (p. 28) of On Track, the magazine of the Conference of Defence Associations Institute:

What Next for the Canadian Forces? Not the Congo
http://cda-cdai.ca/cdai/uploads/cdai/ontrack15n4.pdf

Quote
With the end of Canada’s involvement in combat operations in Afghanistan now in sight, the media have begun to publish articles speculating on where the Canadian Forces might next be deployed. Without saying so explicitly, these articles seem to suggest that because Canada now has a well-trained, well equipped and battle hardened army, that army should be sent abroad somewhere once it has finished its Afghan mission. This is rather curious reasoning. It tends to ignore the fact that the Canadian Forces exist to protect and promote the security and interests of Canada and Canadians. In the absence of any threat to that security or those interests, the Canadian Forces should remain in their barracks against the day when such a threat may emerge. To deploy them abroad simply because of their capabilities is sheer nonsense.

This line of argument is, of course, totally lost on proponents of the so-called human security agenda who advocate using the Canadian Forces to defend civilian populations at risk in civil war situations around the world, even in the absence of any discernible Canadian interest. The main focus of these proponents at the moment seems to be the Democratic Republic of the Congo [with the Globe and Mail in the lead],
http://unambig.com/why-the-globe-and-mail-is-not-a-newspaper-part-2-congo-section/
where fifteen years of civil wars have produced some five million dead and hundreds of thousands of rape victims. It is undeniable that the situation in the Congo represents a humanitarian tragedy of epic proportions. This is not, however, sufficient reason to dispatch a Canadian contingent to join the United Nations (UN) force now thrashing around more or less hopelessly in the eastern regions of the Congo.

Any decision by the Canadian government on whether or not to deploy forces to the Congo should be informed by a cool and reasoned analysis of some historical facts and contemporary realities…

What the Canadian government should not do is consider sending a contingent of the Canadian Forces to join MONUC [actually now MONUSCO].
http://monusco.unmissions.org/
What advocates of this course of action seem to believe is that the addition of some well-trained Canadian troops, equipped with armoured vehicle and helicopters, will be sufficient to transform MONUC into a force capable of protecting all civilians and restoring peace, law and order in the Congo. This belief is at best naïve, at worst hubristic. It totally ignores the dimensions and complexities of the conflicts in the Congo.

By sending a contingent to the Congo, the Canadian government would be exposing its troops to an endlessly frustrating and thankless mission with no end in sight, and this in a country replete with dangers, corruption and disease. Coming on top of a ten-year involvement in an Afghan mission whose outcome is anything but certain, new commitments could sap the morale of the Canadian Forces involved. This would not be in the best interests of the Forces or of the country.

Louis Delvoie is Senior Fellow at the Centre for International Relations, Queen’s University.
http://www.queensu.ca/cir/?q=node/14
He is a former Canadian high commissioner to Pakistan.

Mark
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: The Congo
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2011, 20:22:06 »
To have any impact on the situation, we would need to send a full division to the Congo. In order to do that, we would need a minimum of three divisions of troops and equipment in the Army, and air and naval elements to support such a force (in addition to doing their own jobs of surveillance and protection of Canadian air and sea space).

I wonder if the writers at the Globe thought of that, calculated the costs or are in any way advocating for tripling or quadrupling the size of the CF and providing the attendant equipment, infrastructure and training funds to match?
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.