Author Topic: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being no longer Mothballed  (Read 18822 times)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2010, 21:54:42 »
Thank you Mark. Glad to see I am not the only one thinking its an expansive half knot!

And thank you Hamiltongs. But trust me, I am a dinausor: I am about to be honourably discharged from the SupRes by Her Majesty as my ten years are up.

There is a thrid way for the future of the reserve which is neither the pre Kingston days, nor the current one but is closer to the "total force concept". I have been advocating it for years to whoever wishes to hear it: An american style reserve: Four regional reserve training centers  (East, Quebec, Ontario, West) manned by reg force administrative officers and relevant trade training personnel. These centers would have all the simulators, classroom and materiel training ressources required.

Once a reserve is recruited and enrolled by recruiting center, she would be processed through basic at St-jean like every regular force person, but mostly in the summer (to avoid screwing up school year). Then, the appropriate "regional center" would take her over and provide her with a schedule of ten monthly week ends  a year when she would be expected to show up for trade/skill maintenance training and two weeks of full time service. When trade qualified , he would be posted to an existing team of some sort (harbour defense, MCDV crew, inspection diving team, etc.). While on such team, the monthly week end and two week annual training would be with that team so that all the time would be devoted to team training and readiness maintenance. In case of need (wartime or otherwise) the whole team gets called out.

Now, that is "total force", but it is bold and goes against the organisation of reserves we have used for 83 years. However, it is important to remenber that until not so long ago (last 12 years, roughly, reserve units used to do their own recruiting, medicals, enrolment and provided most of the basic training and trades training internally. This is not so anymore and it then begs the question, what do we need the units for, other than maintaining 24 buildings?

Good pondering everyone.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2010, 22:44:47 »
what do we need the units for, other than maintaining 24 buildings?

I'd suggest that Cmdre Hose's vision is still relevant: NAVRES divisions bring the navy to the hinterland.  Whether that application is being fully exploited or not is a matter for discussion.

Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2010, 01:02:41 »
P.S.: Conecerning wintering in the Arctic: Amundsen does it, but more importantly, if you go to the AOPS thread of this forum, you will see that the latest AOPS plan calls for ships about 5500 tons, Polar 3 capable only with a maximum continous speed of 17 kts , that will be very lightlyarmed with small  weapons you could bolt on just about any  merchant hull. Last time I checked, the river class icbreakers you mention, like Radisson and DesGroseillers were exactly that size and capable of 16.5 kts continous in open waters. They also had agreat big landing pad on their stern. So do we need to spend 3.1 B$ for an extra half knot or is it easier to get four or five more Radisson's for the Coast guard and from time to time strap light weapons on thier decks, embark military operators and deploy them on "sovereignty patrols"?
AOPS is based on the Norwegian SVALBARD design but is being modified for Canadian service.  SVALBARD is 6,300 tons full load displacement with a maximum speed of 17.5 knots.  She only operates a medium (NH-90) helicopter which is one of the Canadian modifications (our MH are much larger).  She cost approximately $90 Million USD (plus CSE fit) in 2002.  Part of the reason for the $3 billion AOPS budget is the switch to accrual accounting methods for capital purchases.  It is also worth noting that the AOPS programme stated that "There is currently insufficient infrastructure in both Esquimalt and Halifax to berth the AOPS.  As a result, some additional jetty infrastructure renewal would be required.  The project will also establish a docking and refuelling facility in Nunavut.  These infrastructure costs - estimated at approximately $274 million - will be included in the AOPS budget."  I don't think that purchasing a 30+ year old design such as the CCG Medium/River icebreaker is necessarily a better approach than AOPS nor will it prove any cheaper.

There is a similar thread at the Canadian Naval Review website that is worth reading: http://naval.review.cfps.dal.ca/forum/view.php?topic=2

Offline Colin P

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2010, 17:33:07 »
One of the issues with “river class” icebreakers is that they are designed with more longitudinal strength than horizontal, Ocean class breakers need the horizontal strength to avoid being crushed by shifting ice flows. That being said the Larson and the 1100 class are pretty much the last dedicated icebreakers we have built since 86-87. I don’t think Canada has the institutional knowledge to build them anymore and certain not up on the current technology. That expertise can be imported both through purchasing proven designs and bringing SME’s from other shipyards and design firms. While having a hull built offshore is faster and cheaper, it’s not likely politically doable.
As for manning them, well the first couple of months in the Arctic is rather exciting, after that……
Oldgatedriver, If I recall the drive in minesweeping tech was to make it modular, so the equipment was supposed to be able to be moved from ship to ship as required, is/was that the case, did they succeed or are there technology choke points to cause problems?     

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2010, 09:23:06 »
Colin:

Minesweeping gear is pretty well modular. We have a limited number of kits and they can be moved from one MCDV to the next fairly easily. Minesweeping is not high tech and has not changed much since it was conceived at the end of Victorian times. However, sweeping only deals with moored (or tethered) mines. offensive mine warfare has evolved passed that and we now have to deal with bottom mines. These you have to "hunt", and the hunting is technology driven.

Basically, think of hydrographic surveying: you are trying to derive a picture of the bottom of the water in sufficiently rough details that you can point out where the "bumps" on the bottom and general slopes are. In mine hunting, using similar techniques,  we are trying to pin point objects in realtime that are from the size of a barrel down to the size of a bankers box on the sea floor that look like they do not belong there to start with.

In Canada, I'll say it again here, the MCDV were acquired to deal with ONE mine warfare threat: deep anti-submarine mines. This is because at the time we developed the MCDV's concept of operation, we were in the middle of the acquisition program for six to eight nuclear submarines. Such submarines were sufficiently high value assets to warrant an attack by deep sea mines.

The MCDV's were to deal with such mines in two ways: Moored mines would be team swept with mechanical EDATS gear (Extreme Depth Armed Team Sweep). Dealing with the bottom mines was different : in "peace" time, extremely detailed route surveys of the routes would be taken by the MCDV's using side scan sonar. Anything unusual revealed by these surveys would be identified by divers or ROV and catalogued. In case of increased tension or suspected mine attack, the route survey would be re-taken and compared to the original one. Anything new would be considered a mine and re-identified or destroyed by divers/ROV again. So here is a first technological choke point: The volume of data that needed to be stored, then compared for discrepancies - with the attendant "noise to signal" problems, not to mention "matching of data: did the ship go over exactly the same ground, were the sonar angles the same, is this a different rock, or the same rock which shifted a bit or was not measured from the same position, etc. I do not know (as I have been out for a while) if we ever managed to make it work. I know we had not when I retired.

Just think of the expeditions that go looking for important warship sinking sites: They have a good idea of where the ships sank because navies keep pretty good navigational records and they are looking for a six to nine hundred foot ship. Still they search for weeks, months and sometimes fail to find their prey. You are looking for something very small that may or may not be there and never know what your search area will be exactly until you start finding mines. That is why, for the shallower area where regular mines are used against surface ships we need mine hunters that have two important assets: 1) every possible and conceivable measure of self protection possible, and 2) the single most advanced computing system for realtime analysis of data, the Mk1 human eye/brain computer.

For this type of mine hunting work, modular systems are more problematic: First, it is difficult if not impossible to know the exact boundary of the mined area, and thus cannot come up with a safe standoff distance for any Craft of opportunity that would receive the modular package. Such craft does not have self protection measures built-in and losing it and the modular package before even starting is not the best scenario. Moreover, it would have to be stand off technology. We are slowly getting there and the latest generations of machines are getting better, but such technology has to work in nature and, whether  you have an umbilical control or radio control (more complicated as you still need something connecting the underwater system to the surface antenna) search system, it is affected by under water currents, the way it is driven by the operator, the distance off you are (time delays) and the effect of the weather on the surface mother ship. So if you are in a hurry, you can miss things or easily fail to  maintain proper attitude or lose contact with the system or fail to realize the actual position of the object you are inspecting more closely, etc.  In all cases, the safety of your craft of opportunity  has now been compromised. 

As you can see, while the technology is improving, we are not there yet and mine hunting is still a craft that requires people going in harm's way in the mine field relying on their experience and the safety of the self-protection measures built in the craft they use.

Sorry if I bored some people with mine warfare 101.
 

Offline Colin P

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2010, 10:32:31 »
Not boring at all, even though I knew a fair bit of it. As for the mapping issue, the ability to map bottom terrain is increasing both through the GPS acquisitions, ability to store and read data and multi-beam sonar. The future of that kind of mine warfare likely lives in AUV's operating ahead of the ship to sweep the area. I worked with the Underwater Research Lab from Simion Fraser University where they where working on AUV's and in fact I am taking a small ROV out for field inspections next week   http://www.videoray.com/products/10-pro-3-e

One option I can see is that when the minehunter detects a target either directly or remotely, they deploy a ROV sled which carries the AUV to the vicinity. The AUV detaches from the sled and investigates the target, sending real time video to the sled, which is then relayed back to the ship. This will reduce the AUV's biggest handicap which is transmitting complex data through the water column. If the target is identified as hostile, then the AUV or a specialized ROV destroys it.

These guys have been working the AUV angle for quite sometime and I have seen their AUV being tested in Indian Arm, there larger one was on a direct heading for our vessel which it detected and altered course for, quite interesting stuff.
http://www.ise.bc.ca/auv.html

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Canada's navy cuts coast patrol fleet in half
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2010, 12:10:58 »
Canada's navy cuts coast patrol fleet in half
Last Updated: Thursday, May 13, 2010 | 12:50 PM AT
CBC News



HMCS Saskatoon and the other coastal patrol ships were built in the mid-1990s. (DND)
 
A shortage of money and sailors is forcing Canada's navy to mothball half of its fleet of coastal patrol vessels.

Canada's 12 Kingston-class ships, based in Halifax and Esquimalt, B.C., are operated by the navy reserve. The 55-metre vessels are used to patrol the Arctic, Atlantic and Pacific ocean coasts.

In a statement to CBC News, the navy says it made the tough choice to leave several ships at dock and strip them of their crews because it doesn't have the resources to operate all 12.

The navy says the move is necessary to continue the primary mission of defending Canada.

"Upon close examination of resources and priorities, this was deemed necessary to safeguard and optimize our operational capability, both now and in the future," wrote Denise LaViolette, a navy spokeswoman.

Three ships will remain on each coast. The others won't be scrapped, but they will be put in long-term storage.

No financial details given
The navy has not said how much money it would need to keep the whole fleet active, or how much it will save by reducing the fleet by half.

The Kingston-class ships were built in the mid-1990s to hunt for mines that could block Canadian ports. They are lightly armed and can be converted to carry a small underwater robot or even platoons of soldiers.

LaViolette said that, despite the navy's actions, the federal government is providing "stable and predictable" funding. She said the navy continues to modernize its frigates and refit its submarines.
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Offline Petamocto

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Re: Canada's navy cuts coast patrol fleet in half
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2010, 12:36:13 »
For too long, good-old-fashioned Canadian soldier creativity has kept the mission going at all costs no matter what constraints were placed on him.

The problem is that nobody ever notices there's a problem when you get the job done.

Kudos to the people in charge here for not saying "okay now we'll man these ships with 10 people and we'll train by firing one bullet per year out of the cannon".  It's not about playing hardball, but saying "Look, this is what we can effectively do and if you need more I need X, Y, and Z".

And the proof is in the media responses.  People are now forced to take notice, instead of those 12 becoming 11 which would become 10, etc.
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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2010, 19:16:20 »
Quote
...and three frigates, HMCS Montreal, St John's and Vancouver will now be conducting domestic and continental missions to a "limited degree"...

Anyone care to speculate on what exactly that means?

I take it as, cancel all plans of crossing the pond.

I only ask as I'm posted in 3 weeks  :(
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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2010, 21:53:27 »
Anyone care to speculate on what exactly that means?

I take it as, cancel all plans of crossing the pond.

I only ask as I'm posted in 3 weeks  :(

Don't speculate it only contributes to making things seems worse then they might otherwise be.

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2010, 22:00:56 »
Don't speculate it only contributes to making things seems worse then they might otherwise be.

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Point taken  :nod:
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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2010, 07:42:07 »
There was some interesting reading that came my way the other day, and consider this (with respect to ship capabilities being supported.)

Why would we spend money to maintain systems that are, quite literally, at the end of their service life due to the HCM project?

Should we spend a limited budget on systems that are being phased out through the life of the project?  Or should we transfer the parts to the ships that are doing the missions, and let those ships that aren't doing much more than low or standard readiness tasks go with what they have until they get the brand-new gear through HCM??

Do we want to invest $$$$$$$$ in SPS-49 radar parts when there's not going to be a single SPS-49 in the fleet in 5 years? 

Or, do we want to invest that money into a 3D radar system that will be taking the CPF's into the future through the next 20 years?

Yeah, it sucks that we're tying up platforms, and that some ships are losing capabilities, but in the near term, how much will that affect us? 

In the longer term, Halifax is headed for HCM, and her "old" parts will be available for the other 11 ships to use...and as more ships head into the ditch, their "old" systems will be available to support the other pre-HCM ships.

If we do that instead of buying new parts for the old systems, we'll keep most of the capability, with a fraction of the cost, and the money can go to the new gear, which is, where it really needs to go.

YMMV, but it's a hard choice that's had to be made, depending on your perspective, you can see why the decision had to be made.

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2010, 08:11:32 »
NS, you better watch yourself.  You're making sense.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2010, 09:30:53 »
E.R. Campbell:
Quote
Either sinks MacKay.

I cannot see the prime minister making the minister walk the plank over the matter--esp. after Guergis/Jaffer.

Just before all this blew up, never never land words from Mr MacKay:

Navy renewal proceeding
http://www.thestarphoenix.com/business/Somnia/3021815/story.html

Quote
...
Our defence blueprint is providing the navy what it needs to serve on our three coasts and internationally. We are modernizing our frigates and refitting our submarines, and are set to invest tens of billions in building a several large vessels.

The soon-to-be finalized National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy will set the way ahead for the fleet. On the personnel front, an increasing number of skilled and dedicated people are joining the navy...

Mark
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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2010, 12:08:31 »
I love the shouts of criticism from the opposition parties.  Did they forget the "decade of darkness" already?
Who says it's the right thing to leave? Right to let them kill women for being raped? Right to allow girls to be baby producing facilities with no hope for education? Right to allow millions of children go unvaccinated against simple curable things like polio? There are good things we are doing, but we should just give up, because you think it is right we should come home... so we can come back and do it all over again in 20 years instead of staying now to fix the problem today, not later.

Offline Snakedoc

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2010, 12:58:53 »
Its quite amazing the amount of news coverage this has received across Canada over the past 24 hrs, this has certainly brought the naval ships/lack of ships issue to the forefront.

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2010, 14:04:35 »
from CBC.ca


Quote
Order to cut navy's coastal vessels rescinded
Last Updated: Friday, May 14, 2010 | 1:54 PM ET Comments0Recommend5.
CBC News
The order to cut Canada's 12 coastal defence vessels by half has been rescinded — just one day after it was announced, according to the country's chief of defence staff.

"We're going to rescind the order and have a look at the resources that are being provided, not only the money … but also the crewing and what we can do to maximize the available personnel, not only in the navy but the rest of the Canadian Forces to ensure that the navy's next 100 years is as successful as the last," Gen. Walter Natynczyk told a press conference in Ottawa Friday.

On Thursday, a navy spokeswoman told CBC News that a shortage of money and sailors would force Canada's navy to mothball half its fleet of 12 coastal vessels used to patrol the Arctic, Atlantic and Pacific coasts.

More to come
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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2010, 14:12:58 »
I love the shouts of criticism from the opposition parties...

No kidding!  I couldn't believe my ears hearing an NDP guy yell out "When will the Prime Minister answer for how poorly he has funded the military...?".

The budget has been increased by how many billions in the last decade?

Granted the Liberals started us going upward, but you can be rest assured one party was voting against every penny of it.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2010, 14:16:08 »
The CDS has cut the legs from under the Chief of the Maritime Staff who, in my view, has no choice but to resign.  This certainly cannot be good for service relations; and the CDS is sadly taking on a bit of the appearance of a ministerial poodle.

Which did not appear the case previously, see here  and here:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/04/afghan-detainee-docs-cds-sticking-it-to.html
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/11/cds-serves-hard-one-to-government.html

Mark
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« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 14:30:26 by MarkOttawa »
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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2010, 14:32:40 »
I guess some peoples phone lines and BB are going nuts. Wish the drama/storm was televised.  :pop:
The public damage is done, might as well watch the show.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2010, 14:35:55 »
....and just a heads up, those "some peoples" are watching this thread very closely.
And, for some reason, they seem very thin-skinned.

Bruce
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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2010, 14:37:57 »
Good to hear of the screams from the money lenders, but, I won't hold my breath on new stuff until there is new stuff.  How the Lieberals/NDP can shout the odds is beyond me after the 90's but maybe this will be a good thing.
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« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2010, 15:04:31 »
This just out at the CF web page:
Quote
Recent media reports about the Navy are over-stated.  In fact, in this Navy’s centennial year, the level of support is strong.  We have not stood down a single ship.

I am very proud of the Navy’s significant role around the world.  The Navy has projected leadership abroad in missions like Haiti and anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden.  That role will continue.

La protection de la souveraineté du Canada est une priorité.  Les patrouilles maritimes vont se poursuivre.  Le rôle de leadership que joue la marine continuera.

As Chief of Defence Staff, I am very happy with the significant investments made by this government in recent years.  The DND Budget Line continues to rise every year.

The instructions with respect to readiness levels of the fleet, for this fiscal year, which were issues by the Chief of Maritime Staff on April 23, 2010, are rescinded.

We will have to review the resource allocations across the CF and issue new instructions with the Minister’s endorsement.
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« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 15:37:17 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

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Re: 6 Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels being Moftballed
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2010, 16:17:55 »
The CDS has cut the legs from under the Chief of the Maritime Staff who, in my view, has no choice but to resign.  This certainly cannot be good for service relations; and the CDS is sadly taking on a bit of the appearance of a ministerial poodle.

Which did not appear the case previously, see here  and here:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/04/afghan-detainee-docs-cds-sticking-it-to.html
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/11/cds-serves-hard-one-to-government.html

Mark
Ottawa

Nowheres does the CDS even hints that he has lost confidence in the CMS, nor has the Navy. So as a serving sailor I feel your view is not only wrong but one based upon the obsolete custom of falling on ones sword.

I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Quote fr Recceguy: "Btw I am awesome. It hardly sucks to be me
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Proud member of MARCOM...erm Canadian Navy...now RCN.