Topic: Questions about Pay Scales, Direct Entry Officers, Construction Engineers

[oats]

Finishing a B. Civil Engineering degree program this week and looking into the military Construction Engineer Officer (CEO... I wish!) air force position.

I had an elongated talk with a recruiting officer who is a construction engineer and I wanted some input on his comments. I feel he was candid and straightforward in his responses so I have little reason to doubt their credibility. But I want more opinions and experiences to rely on if I decide to make this my career.



#1 - Time frame until captain:
My understanding is that I would go through basic training, then language training and then other training at Gagetown. This whole duration is nearly 1 1/2 yrs. At the end of the training I get the Lt. bar and a half. The officer said the typical duration from the beginning of training (ie. basic) to the double bar is about 4 years. Is this typical/average?

Essentially it sounds like the duration at each rank is as follows:
1 1/2 yr- 2Lt
2 yrs - Lt
Then at the 3 1/2 to 4 yr mark to Capt.

Is this realistic or is the recruiter sugar coating?



#2 - Pay scales:
I have a hard time deciphering between the Class A/B/C/D/E as shown here:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfor-ofr-eng.asp

A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212)

Now the recruiter told me class A pay is typically for people with, say Masters degrees or who have gone through the ROTP/RMC training.
I imagine DEO is direct entry officer and I'm wondering if that would be applicable to me. I tried reading through the CBI references but nothing I have found clarifies what the distinctions are.



#3 - If you sign your contract at the 2009 pay scales, and in 2010 the pay in your category is increased, then do you receive the increased pay or are you paid according to the 2009 scales?



#4 - How much freedom do you get through basic and then occupational training? Do they train you throughout the weekends or are you allowed to do whatever you want?


#5 - If you sign as a Direct Entry Officer how long is your typical contract? What are the penalties of quitting and breaking the contact?




If my questions about finances make me seem like I want to join for the cash I want to clarify that is not the case. It is however an important issue to me. I went through the army cadet program for over 5 years, got my jump wings and joined the reserve unit my last year of high school. My understanding and enjoyment of the military culture and structure is healthy - so my motivations are not financial. However my responsibilities to dependents requires some financial prudence and planning.

I left the reserves because during my schooling I moved twice and being attached to another reserve unit without my trade training was a mess. I enjoyed playing pool, shredding paper and moving a little bit of furniture around the office. But it was becoming too much of a hassle to deal with all the bureaucracy. Looking back I should have gone the ROTP route but at the time I didn't want to tie myself into any contractual obligations for after I finished school.

Anyways, thanks for any help or information offered. I'm going to try and get into contact with some local engineers and pick their brains. Thought I might try here to see what you all have to say.

-oats

[George Wallace]

Well oats, you have come to the right place.  Each and every one of your questions has been asked many times before and answered in topics that are solely dedicated to them.  You will find several topics on Pay, Pay Scales, etc.  they will answer those questions.  You may want to SEARCH "weekends" and see what you find.  It could clear up a lot of things.  "Lengths of contracts" for the various Entry Plans are discussed, but it may be best to get the final word from your CFRC, as they will know exactly what Entry Plan you may be using. 

As for point # 3: I signed on the dotted line in Dec 1979, and I definitely am not getting paid at the 1979 pay rates.

[oats]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I found some posts including answers from you.

Q1 - I found somewhere that the typical requirements for captain is 3 years of commissioned service and the required training and courses for your trade. So assuming there are no huge gaps, or courses failed, the average time would probably be about 3 1/2 years (1 1/2 initial training and then 2~ years as LT). This falls in line with what the recruiter said.

Q 2/3

  DEO 2LTs come in at a higher rate of pay, as they are usually more trained than those entering under other Officer Entry Plans.  That is, they usually have paid for their Degree/Certificate/Education out of their own pockets and are entering the CF with some skills vis the person entering under another Plan and having the CF then pay for them to gain those skills.

My situation falls under pay level C. Are you insinuating that they may start DEO officers at a higher Pay Increment level than Basic?

What most affects the pay increment level offered to DEOs? Grades at school, time in the reserves or how much cash the CF has to throw around? I searched for this for DEOs but found essentially nothing.

A 2LT reaching a Pay Level, like a Cpl reaching a certain Pay Level, will upon promotion to LT, like the Cpl to MCpl, go into the same Pay Level.  For example a 2LT getting paid Lvl 3 will upon promotion be paid LT Lvl 3.  In some cases you will see that the LT Lvl 1 will be less than 2LT Lvl 3, as you may notice when looking at all of the other ranks Pay Scales.

If I understand right then the progression on the pay scale to captain may look as follows:

Start as 2LT at Basic pay increment.
After a year or so get boosted to 2LT pay increment 1.
After req. training (1 1/2 yrs~ if there are no big gaps) promoted to LT and maintain pay increment 1 (not basic pay).
After another year get boosted to PI 2 for LT?
Then get promoted to captain and start back at the basic PI?

Does that sound right?

4 - There was not much on the BOMQ on the training forum. I am led to believe that it is just like BMQ where everyone is babied and cultured into military mode all the way through. Not looking forward to doing all that again.


5 - I failed to find any information about what the contracts for a DEO includes. If nobody has input on this then I will make sure to document the process and what I find, if move forward in my application and tests.

-oats

[NFLD Sapper]

IIRC you would start at the basic lvl when you move up in pay scale.

The only variation I know of is the NCM route from Cpl (A) to MCpl (listed as Cpl (B)) is that you go to the same IPC you had when you where a Cpl.

[oats]

That was my impression but I didn't know how to square that away with, say a 2Lt with PI 3 getting promoted to Lt with Basic - a pay cut. I assume they just put you to the PI necessary to avoid a paycut.

Ok, well thanks for help on payscales. I feel like I've got a workable idea of how they work. If I do the process and they give me an offer then I'll try and get it cleared up more.

If anyone has any input on what the signing contracts for DEOs entail shout it out

I feel like I'm just taking and giving nothing on this board right now. You'll get back ten-fold whatever information you give me in time.

[engineer1]

What most affects the pay increment level offered to DEOs? Grades at school, time in the reserves or how much cash the CF has to throw around? I searched for this for DEOs but found essentially nothing.
-oats

According to the CFRC personnel unlike the corporate structure, CF is based on RANKs.  So grades may be affected on your initial pay and increase accordingly. You will only know this information for sure when you get your employment offer.

4 - There was not much on the BOMQ on the training forum. I am led to believe that it is just like BMQ where everyone is babied and cultured into military mode all the way through. Not looking forward to doing all that again.
-oats

Yes, BMOQ is quite same as the BMQ. Its only for officer candidates, and have more contents that will shape you as a leader/Officer.

5 - I failed to find any information about what the contracts for a DEO includes. If nobody has input on this then I will make sure to document the process and what I find, if move forward in my application and tests.
-oats

If your trade is HOT, and CF is in need of people to fill in then they will offer you a signing bonus. And according to CFRC personnel, as a DEO your contract will be 5/6 years.  Since you have applied for Construction Eng for airforce, you only have to do the regular tests (Medical, interview etc...). 

[George Wallace]

If your trade is HOT, and CF is in need of people to fill in then they will offer you a signing bonus.

This is complete BS. 

[oats]

The recruiter I talked to informed me that there are no recruitment allowances for Construction engineers at this time. It is listed as a 'Hot Job' on the recruitment website and throughout the CFRCs. Last I checked they still had 10 positions to fill this year .

The typical deo contract is for 5/6 years when you join without any incentives? That's something I'd have a hard time swallowing. But I didn't have that on my list of questions when I interrogated the recruiter. It's there for the next visit.

Thanks for info.

[Robodad]

Here's a link for Terms of Service (TOS). You need a DWAN computer for the link.
http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/docs/instruction/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp

[captloadie]

The typical deo contract is for 5/6 years when you join without any incentives? That's something I'd have a hard time swallowing.

Every year there is an increase in the pay, called incentives. As a Capt, there are ten incentives before you reach the maximum salary.

If by incentives you mean "Hey, no one is paying me a bonus to sign 5/6 years of my life away", then you may want to consider looking on civvy street for a job. The incentive of joining the CF is starting a career that will change your life, most often for the better. The friends you'll make and the experiences you'll have will make the time well worth your while. It will also make you more marketable if and when you do leave for greener pastures.

[George Wallace]

Here's a link for Terms of Service (TOS). You need a DWAN computer for the link.
http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/docs/instruction/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp

 

As the person asking the questions is only a prospect looking to join the CF, they will have to visit a CFRC to view this link.

[CFchamp]

2nd Lieutenant makes 49000 a year
lieutenant makes 54000 a year
Captain makes 68000 a year           

you spend 2 years as a 2ndLT then 2 more years as a LT so after 4 years your a captain

[NFLD Sapper]

2nd Lieutenant makes 49000 a year
lieutenant makes 54000 a year
Captain makes 68000 a year           

you spend 2 years as a 2ndLT then 2 more years as a LT so after 4 years your a captain

Not necessarily true...... you have been told before...

Promotions are never guaranteed. Lots of people around who will never see the next rank.

MILNET.CA MENTOR

[captloadie]

Well, the above quote sounds great, but unless you have a medical or administrative reason (ie C&P, accomoadation, etc.) promotion to Captain is now automatic, not merited. Heck the rate we're going in the Log world, promotion to Maj will soon be automatic.

[gcclarke]

Eh, I know at least a few current SLts who will never make Lt(N) while they are still in their current trade. The prospect of being a training failure may be unpleasant, but shouldn't be discounted completely. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, etc. Of course, failure rates do vary greatly from trade to trade. I cannot speak for the fine contstruction engineering folk.