Topic: Two children killed after car nears Canadian convoy

[BulletMagnet]

Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?         

Are you serious 

As for the 25mm I hav no idea whythat was fired, generaly it would/should have been the coax or pintol mount...That being said however I will not second guess the actions of the gunner or the Crew Commander they were the guys on the ground and they made the call. Had they made the wrong one perhaps the news would read " X Canadian soldiers killed in car bombing"

I for one feel bad for the kids but them is the breaks....

[GAP]

CTV has a piece on the shootings featuring a military analyst by the name of Mercedes Stephenson. She seems to have a better grasp of military matters than most of the TV experts, and gets her message across in a clear and concise manner.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/children-killed/#clip70066

You're right...she's clear, consise and accurate...a pleasant change...

edited to add: watching CBC coverage now, and they, while being accurate, are sure playing up the issue of turning Afghan civilians against the Canadians if these accidents continue.....like, soldiers we know you didn't mean it, but God....get it right!!

[Overwatch Downunder]

Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?   Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?         

Dear Kind Sir, and Academic of Academia ( as so worded in your profile),

Can you please enlighten us by telling how you would go to a stowage container, then get out of a moving armoured vehicle say at 50Kph, then set up and deploy a spike belt when a suspect vehicle is gaining speed on you, all under less than 100metres, when you have a matter of a few seconds, if that?

Shooting engine blocks eh, humm, I want to stop the driver from blowing us (and me) up by KILLING him, so to do a hit and miss on radiators and engine blocks could cost me and others our lives. You can't fight, yetalone win a war by being Mr Political Correct.  The whole vehicle is going to get peppered, with particular attention to the driver and occupants.

Perhaps if I may be so polite and kind by suggesting you stick to your area of expertise.


Warm regards,

OWDU.

[Love793]

"Another hospital visitor said that if he were the children's father, he would personally strap on a suicide vest and exact vengeance on Canadian troops.

Shopkeeper Din Mohammad said foreign soldiers had better stop accidentally killing civilians or they will suffer the same fate as the defeated Soviets.

"Otherwise the day will come when everybody will stand up against the foreigners in a holy war - a jihad."

"It's happened once before (with the Soviets). If things continue like this, history will repeat itself."

Is it just me, or do these comments seem a little, shall we say doctored? Not trying to sound like some conspiracy nut, but I'd really like to see the actual translation, not the the Liberal/NDP media outlets translation.

[Trinity]

Is this not a situation where using Dazzlers would have saved lives??? 

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=57794810-30c5-43b6-a148-3acbb64f853f

[yak]

The RAF around KAF will bounce a pencil flare off your windshield if they don't like the way you're acting, if they have the chance.

But I'm not second guessing the actions that cost those kids their lives.  Not from the other side of the planet.

[stegner]

Overwatch Downunder,

Who says you have to get out of the LAV? Please see this site http://www.mobiledeploymentsystems.com/.   Suffice to say one can deploy a spike belt from the comfort of the drivers seat. 

I realize that being political correct does not always win wars, but neither do tragic events such as these.  I feel for the soldier who pressed the trigger as this individual would most likely give almost anything for the car to be filled with terrorists rather than a family.   Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either.    The current policies are not fair for those in the convoys or the Afghanis that travel by them.   Perhaps, technology is a partial solution, something like this might be helpful http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-19-translators_x.htm.   Another technological solution might be buying a device to send a EMP pulse to the offending car frying the car and any electronics connected to explosives therein. 

[Der Panzerkommandant....]

Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield? 

Stegner,

Try asking yourself this if you only have about 5 seconds to live....

Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?

That's what the warning gestures and signs are for....followed by bullets.

Apparently the "laser dazzlers" are too inhumane for the infamous Rideau Institute Trinity.      

Again troops, the locals know the rules and avoid convoys. This guy didn't and the kids, sadly enough, suffered the consequences.

Don't second guess the troops that were there.

As for EMPs....they fry everything in the area.

Regards

[stegner]

Don't second guess the troops that were there.

Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.   Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again.   

[Overwatch Downunder]

Overwatch Downunder,

Who says you have to get out of the LAV? Please see this site http://www.mobiledeploymentsystems.com/.   Suffice to say one can deploy a spike belt from the comfort of the drivers seat. 

I realize that being political correct does not always win wars, but neither do tragic events such as these.  I feel for the soldier who pressed the trigger as this individual would most likely give almost anything for the car to be filled with terrorists rather than a family.   Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either.    The current policies are not fair for those in the convoys or the Afghanis that travel by them.   Perhaps, technology is a partial solution, something like this might be helpful http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-19-translators_x.htm.   Another technological solution might be buying a device to send a EMP pulse to the offending car frying the car and any electronics connected to explosives therein. 

Kind Sir, and Gentleman

Like I said, stick to your area of expertise, you don't have a clue in the reailty of what goes on, shy of media releases and INet gadgetry. In the real world, things are not so warm and fuzzy. However, I do like the bit "Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either." That nearly sent me into spasms alone.

You would might not make the best soldier, but you would appear to have all the makings of a good politican.  

Humble regards from the tropics,

OWDU

[stegner]

You would might not make the best soldier, but you would appear to have all the makings of a good poliitican.  Grin

Or a bureaucrat I hope! 

Enjoy the tropics.

[Wonderbread]

Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.   Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again.   

LAV Gunners take these kinds of situations very seriously and they put alot of thought into their convoy SOPs. No one wants to kill kids and innocents - every one of us knows that we will live with the choices that we make on the roads in Kandahar. But the point at which warning shots turn into lethal force is a grey area, with each situation dependant on the circumstances. It's impossible to armchair this one.

In fall 06 I was a LAV gunner involved in a convoy op in southern Afghanistan. At one point a vehicle pulled out and began speeding towards us, and I fired my COAX in accordance with ROEs. When the dust cleared the battle aiming mark on my daysight was sitting right in the middle of some kid's head as I looked through the windshield at him sitting on the driver's lap. The driver decided to stop just in time, and I checked fire just in time. No one was hurt, but I was seriously pissed off. How the frig could the driver have been so stupid? Risking his life and his family's life like that? Doesn't he know that this game is for keeps? If the timing had been a half second off I would have wasted every single ******* person in that car. And I would have had to live with that.

In the early spring 07 another car was speeding towards us. He got the drop on us, and the ****** exploded himself on the side of my LAV. No one was hurt thankfully, aside from the suicide bomber. But what if someone was hurt? Maybe I should have been just a split second quicker on the trigger. frig, I don't know.

These are the decisions made every day by our guys in Afghanistan and it pisses me off to see this crap armchaired. Guys do enough second guessing of their own actions. They don't need john smith on army.ca or on the CBC adding to it.

Sorry for the vent. This one hits close to home.

[recceguy]

.....and the same people that are bitching about us shooting are the same ones that are bitching when we suggest non lethal pulsating laser lights.

It seems thay really don't want us to succeed.

[TCBF]

Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.   Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again. 

- Good thinking, and you are not alone: there are all sorts of 'boffins' out there trying to develop non-lethal tools to replace some of the lethals in some of the situations.  But, as in 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, technology lags behind the need.

- Necessity is the mother of invention: in the meantime, we do the best with what we have.

[MAMS_933]

I see the usual suspects are out and about posting on the CBC site.  I used to try and post there and have just given up. No matter what you say they never take anything into consideration.