Author Topic: TASER OPINIONS?  (Read 59146 times)

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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #275 on: December 17, 2008, 17:07:39 »
Okay was that article put up for tongue-in-cheek amusement?  That is one of the lamest half assed Taser bashes Ive seen yet.  Although excellent choice that they included the now classic "Dont Tase Me Bro" video.
This sums it up for me:

Quote
"The problem with Tasers is that they are inherently open to abuse, as they are easy to carry and easy to use and can inflict severe pain at the push of a button, without leaving substantial marks," said the report's author Angela Wright, a researcher at Amnesty International.

So she works for them and is thus biased.  Any use of force option is "inherently open to abuse" and makes pain easy and can be done without marks.  As for a Taser "not leaving marks" that just shows that she is right the f@ck out of 'er.  No research criteria, no methodology.  Just sensational tripe. 
And the Taser was never offered as non-lethal.  It is less-than-lethal. 
I guess Bono must have gotten Tased recently.   ::)
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #276 on: December 17, 2008, 17:44:11 »

Quote
"The problem with Tasers is that they are inherently open to abuse, as they are easy to carry and easy to use and can inflict severe pain at the push of a button, without leaving substantial marks," said the report's author Angela Wright, a researcher at Amnesty International.

In reply - Which is why they are not sold to the general public, but instead carried by authorized persons trained in their use.  Like the previous poster said, all tools are open to abuse, its a pretty lame argument, and insinuates their use is currently being abused without showing evidence...



Offline dannybou

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #277 on: December 23, 2008, 04:50:48 »
My apologies for joining in this thread quite late as I just joined the forum. If I may add to other posts on the taser:

It is a less than lethal use of force option;
It can be deployed in situations of active resisting;
It is not a substitute for lethal confrontations.

The model used by my department is the X-26 and it works, even as a deterrent. I have seen situations diffused simply by showing up and the bad guy seeing the bright green blast doors of the cartridge and becoming compliant by fear of the taser. I have also been advised of instances when the bad guy offering to fight, hears the radio transmission that officers are asking for a taser and that in itself calms the situation down. So the Taser is a great piece of equipment wether it is deployed or not. My 2 cents

Offline Breacher41

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #278 on: December 24, 2008, 01:35:12 »
The model used by my department is the X-26 and it works, even as a deterrent. I have seen situations diffused simply by showing up and the bad guy seeing the bright green blast doors of the cartridge and becoming compliant by fear of the taser. I have also been advised of instances when the bad guy offering to fight, hears the radio transmission that officers are asking for a taser and that in itself calms the situation down. So the Taser is a great piece of equipment wether it is deployed or not. My 2 cents

Well same could be said about Officer Presence, Other Enforcement Tools... eh? ;D

The ECW is merely another tool... it is what it is. People will fight regardless of its presence sometimes... I mean hey, members carry guns everywhere and baddies still fight.
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Re: Amnesty warns of 'lethal' Tasers - BBC News
« Reply #279 on: December 25, 2008, 13:42:55 »
These people should stand on the receiving end of a 40 Cal. or 9mm and then conplain of what the odd Tazer may do (if the leads don't make propper contact, etc etc). I wish they would count the number of lives that Tazer has saved, just in situations where if Tazer wasn't avail the Officer involved would have no option but deadly force. Next thing they'll be complaining that Hand Cuffs are inhumane and may cause death if the suspect has high blood pressure.

Like this instance

http://www.mississauga.com/article/22451
Quote
Friends call for probe into fatal shooting

By: The Mississauga News

December 24, 2008 03:09 PM - Friends of a 25-year-old man gunned down by police last Sunday in a Port Credit apartment building are calling for a probe into the fatal shooting.

CBC News is reporting that friends of Gregg Moynagh say they want to know if police had any other option. Moynagh was known to police and was known to suffer from bi-polar disorder.

Danny Vrekalic told the CBC that police could have used a stun gun to subdue his friend.

"They couldn't use a Taser on him because there wasn't a sergeant there. So they trust new cops with guns but not Tasers. There's something wrong with that," Vrekalic told the CBC.

Moynagh was shot and killed at about 1 a.m. on Sunday following a confrontation in an apartment building on Helene St. N.

According to Ontario's Special Investigations Unit, Peel Regional Police officers arrived at the apartment building after 9-1-1 callers reported a man yelling and throwing objects from a fifth-floor balcony.

The SIU says Moynagh died of two gunshot wounds to the upper body.

SIU investigators are waiting to interview the officer who shot him. Several witnesses have already been interviewed.

SIU spokesman John Yoannou told the CBC "there was a confrontation in the hallway just outside the apartment ... it was in that area that the officers confronted the man and during that confrontation the man was shot. The SIU has recovered two knives from the scene. The part they (the knives) played in this scenario we don't know right now."

Peel Police won't comment on the case while it is under investigation by the SIU.


Not wanting to speculate here though, even if a taser was availble this still may well have ended up badly (prescence of knives make it a deadly force situation, taser or no taser).
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Offline Breacher41

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Re: Amnesty warns of 'lethal' Tasers - BBC News
« Reply #280 on: December 25, 2008, 17:16:42 »
(prescence of knives make it a deadly force situation, taser or no taser).

Force +1

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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #281 on: December 26, 2008, 05:29:16 »
Quote
"They couldn't use a Taser on him because there wasn't a sergeant there. So they trust new cops with guns but not Tasers. There's something wrong with that," Vrekalic told the CBC.

It is always a bit of a drag when some unmedicated MHA dude jumps the rails and gets themself hurt or killed.  IMO if someone is diagnosed with a chemical imbalance caused mental disorder the State should mandate forced medication with immediate incarceration on failure to comply with medical regimen prescribed.  However, that might be a topic for a separate thread. 
As for the above quote, that is the reality on the ground in Ontario for municipal officers (not sure what the OPP policy is).  Only members of the Tactical squads or sergeants are allowed to carry Tasers as part of their standard equipment.  One goofy nuance is that if I am the acting sergeant one day, I have to take out a Taser with me.  But if the next day I'm back to regular patrol, I can't carry it.  My qualification didn't evaporate at the end of the shift, but since the books say that we can't carry it, we don't.  I think every officer would be happy to have that extra less-than-lethal tool on their belt if it meant that they might not have to shoot a guy. 
However, at such time as more of us have Tasers, there will obviously be more Taser related incidents (and the predictable whining, pissing and moaning that goes with that).  At present, what you won't read in the paper is how often we put ourselves at risk fighting with or disarming people instead of shooting them.  Of course, there are plenty of people out there that think it is part of our job to get hurt in the line of duty.  They typically are the ones who bray against Taser use. 
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline WR

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #282 on: December 31, 2008, 12:33:09 »
A letter from the Victoria Times Colonist...it took a Doctor to speak the truth . Let's see if CBC, CKNW, CTV etc pick up on this one/ Any bets? Read on..

Choice to subdue Dziekanski right


December 20, 2008



I am not a police officer. I am a physician.

I have seen aggressive, psychotic individuals unable to be subdued by three or four burly, strong men, both in and out of hospital.

I have seen unstable individuals deprived of alcohol, nicotine, friends and in isolation (airplane), with an inability to communicate, in a confined space, turn into an aggressive psychotic individuals, unable to be subdued by four strong males.

The police did not have the luxury of medicines at hand as is the case in hospitals.

They had only the choice of being unable to subdue Robert Dziekanski or using the tools that were issued to them for just such an incident.

Their choice was correct.

Unfortunately, his aggression continued despite several Taser stuns, and he eventually died, but not from the Taser, according to the autopsy report.

I support the police in their actions, in this case.

Peter Richardson

Saanich
© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist

Offline Baden Guy

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #283 on: January 01, 2009, 07:06:49 »
Ah yes the good Doctor is a man of strong opinions.


http://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/116694/BC/Victoria/Richardson

Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #284 on: January 02, 2009, 13:03:07 »
So maybe his people skills are lacking?  Nobody faulted him on job knowlege.  In what way is he lacking the ablility to speak to a medical condition?   ???

This comment was classic though:

Quote
He makes Greg House seem like Tinky Winky

Good luck with your lame ticker, thin skinned one. 
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #285 on: January 02, 2009, 13:17:16 »
Quote
"The problem with Tasers is that they are inherently open to abuse, as they are easy to carry and easy to use and can inflict severe pain at the push of a button, without leaving substantial marks," said the report's author Angela Wright, a researcher at Amnesty International.

I have a little device on my keychain known as a Kubotan, and I'm trained in its use.  It can do all the things this report claims, and costs about $9.00.  ANY weapon, lethal or otherwise, makes the playing field uneven, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

If a million people do a stupid thing, it's STILL a stupid thing.

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #286 on: January 02, 2009, 16:09:53 »


Sorta looks like a mini asp.
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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #287 on: January 02, 2009, 20:05:47 »
And you can also be charged for carrying one

CC Sec 90

Quote
90.   (1) Every person commits an offence who carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition concealed, unless the person is authorized under the Firearms Act to carry it concealed.

Definition of Weapon Sec 2 CC
Quote
"weapon" means any thing used, designed to be used or intended for use

(a) in causing death or injury to any person, or

(b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person

and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes a firearm;
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #288 on: January 02, 2009, 20:14:05 »
No, it's a keychain if anyone asks.  Local mounties saw it hanging out of my pocket, and asked what it was.  Why, a key fob, constable, nudge nudge, wink wink.  Oh, have a nice day then, nudge nudge, wink wink.  And they're not prohibited, you can buy them at any MA supply store.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

If a million people do a stupid thing, it's STILL a stupid thing.

Dimensions will always be expressed in the least useable term, velocity for example, will be expressed in furlongs per fortnight.

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats

 “Look here, Mars! Look here, Mars! I am Titus Pullo! These bloody men are my gift to you.”

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #289 on: January 02, 2009, 20:19:29 »
No, it's a keychain if anyone asks.  Local mounties saw it hanging out of my pocket, and asked what it was.  Why, a key fob, constable, nudge nudge, wink wink.  Oh, have a nice day then, nudge nudge, wink wink.  And they're not prohibited, you can buy them at any MA supply store.

That works until you run into an officer with a martial arts background (or just happens to know what a kubaton is), and decides to be an *******.  And I never said it was a prohibited weapon, that doesn't mean sec 2 and 90 don't apply. 
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Offline IrishCanuck

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #290 on: January 03, 2009, 08:45:31 »
I was wondering as well if you could get charged with weapons dangerous for having the kubotan.
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #291 on: January 03, 2009, 10:27:04 »
If I beat someone with a jug of milk it would be assault with a weapon.  If you use it as a weapon it becomes one. 

Kubotans by themselves are only illegal if they are the ones with the blade that is concealed on the inside. 

Irish, you would have to be doing some pretty crazy shite to get Weapons Dangerous with a kubotan  ;)
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #292 on: January 03, 2009, 13:28:25 »
I've had to use mine, once in the 12 years I've carried one, nothing too dramatic, and the guy didn't stay around to press charges.  It's a pretty devastating little device if used properly.  Both my daughters now carry them.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 15:46:34 by Kat Stevens »
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

If a million people do a stupid thing, it's STILL a stupid thing.

Dimensions will always be expressed in the least useable term, velocity for example, will be expressed in furlongs per fortnight.

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats

 “Look here, Mars! Look here, Mars! I am Titus Pullo! These bloody men are my gift to you.”

Offline IrishCanuck

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #293 on: January 04, 2009, 15:31:58 »
If I beat someone with a jug of milk it would be assault with a weapon.  If you use it as a weapon it becomes one. 

Kubotans by themselves are only illegal if they are the ones with the blade that is concealed on the inside. 

Irish, you would have to be doing some pretty crazy shite to get Weapons Dangerous with a kubotan  ;)

lol 10-4
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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #294 on: February 01, 2010, 17:56:10 »
CBC story from Dec 2009.
It caught my eye because it says:
"Police rethinking Taser use on mentally ill, inquiry told":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/12/01/ns-hyde-police-taser-training.html
"It also plans to train dispatchers to recognize signs of mental health disorders when a 911 call is made and to deploy Emergency Health Services in such cases."
This story is from Halifax. I was surprised to read this was not the case there already.

I know the Toronto 911 Call Receivers have never hesitated to transfer their "211" ( mental ) calls to the Paramedic dispatchers. The mental health community has always been pretty vocal in this city. As one of them put it, “We’re worried because we’re the people who are going to get shocked.”
Quote:
"According to Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair’s own analysis, in 2006, city cops deployed the devices in 156 incidents. In all but nine, the subject appeared “to have a mental disorder” or was in some sort of “crisis.” "
Globe and Mail 11 Feb 2008.

The police services board seemed less than enthusiastic to hand tasers out:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/07/11/to-taser.html

P.S. I am not "anti-Taser". Anything that made the job easier was ok by me. I only wish they invented them three or four decades ago. Sometimes, quietly sitting down and letting them blow off steam at you helped calm them ( and the family ).
I never saw a taser used, but I was trained ( like everyone else ) to remove the probes. ( Except above the clavicles; in the nipples; or in the scrotum or genital area ).
I heard about a guy got Tasered in the eye at Dufferin and St Clair:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/10/29/siu-taser.html











« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 22:55:17 by mariomike »
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #295 on: February 01, 2010, 23:24:47 »
CBC story from Dec 2009.
It caught my eye because it says:
"Police rethinking Taser use on mentally ill, inquiry told":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/12/01/ns-hyde-police-taser-training.html
"It also plans to train dispatchers to recognize signs of mental health disorders when a 911 call is made and to deploy Emergency Health Services in such cases."
This story is from Halifax. I was surprised to read this was not the case there already.

That story smacks of politically correct, fluffy idiocy.  When someone is clearly suffering from a mental heath disorder, we already treat them differently.  If you go too heavy on them, you just make it hard on the next officer.  We go out of our way to talk to them and try to diffuse whatever is going on.  A Taser is a USE OF FORCE OPTION, used when a person is starting to range out of the active resistive (struggling to get away, kicking, thrashing) portion of the use of force model and into the assaultive portion (trying to punch, kick, harm us deliberately).  The two have NOTHING to do with each other.  At such time as anyone, regardless of mental state or lack thereof, is demonstrating the behaviors I mentioned (or worse) they get dealt with.  There is never going to be a time where officers put their safety on the line in order to put on kid gloves just because somebody decided not to take their meds.  Perhaps the medical community should get their thumbs out of their asses and make community treatment orders more common? 

Quote
"According to Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair’s own analysis, in 2006, city cops deployed the devices in 156 incidents. In all but nine, the subject appeared “to have a mental disorder” or was in some sort of “crisis.” "
Globe and Mail 11 Feb 2008.

Well, thank you for that Chief Obvious.  I bet a large percentile of high speed collisions happen when cars drive fast too. 

The police services board seemed less than enthusiastic to hand tasers out:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/07/11/to-taser.html

That article is from 2007!  I think they got over it.  They needed more info.  That is reasonable. 

P.S. I am not "anti-Taser". Anything that made the job easier was ok by me. I only wish they invented them three or four decades ago.

They did, but they used to be called "hickory sticks" and "black jacks"  ;)

Sometimes, quietly sitting down and letting them blow off steam at you helped calm them ( and the family ).

Paramedic crews here will not enter a house that has an MHA person until we have arrived, entered and signalled them to come in.  However, if Toronto Paramedic crews want to wade into potentially violent MHA calls without the police and get into a protracted chit chat about life and its nuances they can have at 'er.  At least they will be qualified to tend to their own wounds when they start getting injured. 
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #296 on: February 01, 2010, 23:38:53 »
However, if Toronto Paramedic crews want to wade into potentially violent MHA calls without the police and get into a protracted chit chat about life and its nuances they can have at 'er.

As the result of a lawsuit against the city for "Delay of Service", which resulted in the unpaid suspensions of two Emergency Medical Dispatchers, two Paramedics, and one Operations Supervisor, there is a new S.O.P. on when to delay service, and when not to.:
http://www.toronto.ca/emssoprecs/

Edit to add:
This is the new "Delay of Service" S.O.P. for our Paramedics.:
"Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."

"Not enter a scene until the appropriate agency has arrived in circumstances involving;
• the use of weapons at the scene;
continuing violence at the scene;
• fire / hazardous materials"
http://www.toronto.ca/emssoprecs/pdf/Patient-Care-and-Scene-Safety-Policy.pdf

"The decision to delay EMS service must include recognizing and evaluating the reasons for problematic patient behaviour—such as metabolic causes of combative behaviour—to ensure staff are not jeopardizing the patient’s life, health or safety.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 14:22:17 by mariomike »
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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #297 on: February 01, 2010, 23:49:44 »

I feel inclined to chime in here.

Someone that I know quite well works in the stats as a sheriff's deputy. He is a taser carrying unit, and uses Taserhappy as part of his online identity. Shortly after the aformentioned Vancouver incedent, I said to him that he might want to change it incase anyone heard his name in conjunction with his taser use.
His quote was as follow "Man , I have  been trained in its use. I know what it does and I have had it used on me. If I deploy my taser its because the F*@&er deserved it."

Secondly,
All I see with the local service (and it really bugs me) is so back and forth. If members deploy a taser as a non-lethal they say "NO tasers are wrong." 2 weeks later when a non-taser baring unit shoots a Native Male carrying a large butcher knife in a crowded parking lot , they say "Why didn't they just wait for a taser unit ?"
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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #298 on: February 01, 2010, 23:52:27 »
NEWS FLASH SOCIETY !!!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!

Darned if you do, and darned if you don't.  :)
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Re: TASER OPINIONS?
« Reply #299 on: February 01, 2010, 23:58:08 »
NEWS FLASH SOCIETY !!!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!

You must be from somewhere other than Canada?  In this country, you certainly can have it both ways.  Multiple ways.  Then you get to complain that you had too many options.  Then you get to point the finger at the person who helped you find multiple ways. 
The sheeple seem to feel that it is part of an officers job to risk injury to get the job done.  We take on a certain amount of risk, but we do not (and never will) tolerate violence for the sake of consideration towards a subject.  If our general society wasn't so lacking in integrity and personal accountability this would be a no brainer.  But people want to be able to poke the dog through the fence and still be able to demand it gets put down when it jumps over and bites them. 
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.