Poll

What is the better ruck sack?

CF Issue Rucksack
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Pack 64 Jump Ruck
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Author Topic: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread  (Read 84323 times)

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Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #200 on: January 22, 2006, 01:02:05 »
Thats perfect! Thank you very much.
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Offline scottypara

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #201 on: February 01, 2006, 20:57:31 »
That is a sexy ruck.

Just graduating from BMQ tommorrow and my Mcpl from 3ppcli told me to look into buying one because I'm a shorter build.

Anyone know if you would be able to purchase a 64pattern ruck for SQ/battleschool?

or would I have to wait to I get to my Unit?

Thanks.

MikeL

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #202 on: February 04, 2006, 14:32:51 »
ScottyeH, just a guess but
you will probably have to use the '82 ruck just like everyone else, unless you can get a chit saying you need the '64.

Offline Pte.Pinky

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #203 on: February 04, 2006, 15:11:12 »
You might also try buying just the 64 frame for starters and gerry-rigging your 82 pattern bag to it (I've done it, it's really not that hard). You're much less likely to attract attention that way, and you still the the benefit of having a 64 pattern frame (you can always get the 64 pattern bag once you finish your courses). But like everyone will tell you, it really depends on your course staff.

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Pinky
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Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #204 on: February 04, 2006, 22:10:09 »
Quote
Check out this site for straps and new 64 pat bags:
http://whitespace-solutions.net/pages/11/index.htm

Guys if your looking for a 64 pattern ruck check this guy out.
I just ordered new straps and their amazing. $60 got me padded shoulder straps, back rest and a very padded kidney belt.  Very good quality and super helpful. 

You can even get the back and parts in cadpat.
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MikeL

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #205 on: February 05, 2006, 15:58:43 »
You might also try buying just the 64 frame for starters and gerry-rigging your 82 pattern bag to it (I've done it, it's really not that hard). You're much less likely to attract attention that way, and you still the the benefit of having a 64 pattern frame (you can always get the 64 pattern bag once you finish your courses). But like everyone will tell you, it really depends on your course staff.

Cheers,
Pinky

Yea, thats great untill a kit inspection, etc.  Don't try to hide anything from the staff; ask the staff if you can use the frame, an go from there. If you have a lot of trouble with the '82 an its causing you pain/injury, etc see a medic an you might get a chit.

Offline genesis98

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #206 on: March 13, 2006, 11:50:45 »
Part 1 here has the the 64 pattern assembly and it is a canadian document.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-002/B-GL-323/003/FP-001/B-GL-323-003-FP-001.pdf

Offline Cincinnatus

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Additional Questions
« Reply #207 on: April 12, 2006, 14:09:32 »
Having read this thread numerous times, as well other, 64-pack, threads, a few questions still remain.

1. It's not clear to me from the pictures, nor from the description, whether or not the Drop-Zone shoulder straps have release buckles like the CP gear ones do. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

2. Has anyone tried *both* the old 64 pack frame, and the ALICE pack frame? From the frames that I've checked out at differing Army Surplus stores, the old, 64 pack frames seem superior in their construction, whereas the ALICE packs seem to "make sense" with their "x" pattern of frame support. I am more inclined towards the 64 pack frame, but I'm eager to hear any specific comparisons/comments.

3. Are there any online places to by "true" 64 pack frames? Most places that I've found don't distinguish between the ALICE pack and the 64 Pack frame. So far, the only place that seems to have them is this: http://www.armyissue.com/ . However, despite emailing them in regards to shipping, no one has replied to me, nor do I see any "order" button that I can use. Has anyone bought from that company, or know where a site selling true 64 pack frames can be found?

4. Has anyone here actually bought the drop zone 64 pack and accessories? I know most people here, for likely good reason, don't like the CP Gear kit. However, is the price difference ($700 CAD for a fully outfitted DZ pack and frame, vs. ~$250 for CP Gear + frame) really justifiable? Furthermore, in regards to the DZ pack, what set of modular packs have proven most handy in the field? Im in the infantry reserve, with aspirations to go abroad, and while I hope to use this pack for civilian purposes, I would also like to buy something that could hold up under the rigours of infantry life/training.

Much thanks,

Cincinnatus  :warstory:
"Omnia relinquit servare Republicam..."

Offline a Sig Op

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #208 on: April 12, 2006, 14:57:41 »
A thought...

Finish BMQ, then invest in a new pack?
"I'm with the red hat ladies, and I thought there was an actual tea party... so there's no tea eh?"

Offline Cincinnatus

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #209 on: April 12, 2006, 15:04:41 »
I'm actually not planning on buying it, or anything, anytime soon, and likely any purchase would be made in the fall when I have some more money saved. However, as I am avid camper and hiker, and am curiouse about such things, I was, and still am interested in the above information. Furthermore, as I am now involved with the reserve, i thought it would be practical to ask about the usefulness of such kit in the forces.

Cheers,

-Cincinnatus
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Offline a Sig Op

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Re: Additional Questions
« Reply #210 on: April 12, 2006, 18:05:03 »
3. Are there any online places to by "true" 64 pack frames? Most places that I've found don't distinguish between the ALICE pack and the 64 Pack frame. So far, the only place that seems to have them is this: http://www.armyissue.com/ . However, despite emailing them in regards to shipping, no one has replied to me, nor do I see any "order" button that I can use. Has anyone bought from that company, or know where a site selling true 64 pack frames can be found?

Not sure what you mean by "true" 64 pack frames vs ALICE pack frames... they are distinct from each other (Though supposedly a 64 pattern pack will fit on an ALICE frame or maybe it's vice versa, can't remember exactly).

If you're looking for a 64 pattern frame though, e-bay is often your best bet.
"I'm with the red hat ladies, and I thought there was an actual tea party... so there's no tea eh?"

Offline Lerch

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Re: Additional Questions
« Reply #211 on: April 12, 2006, 21:18:05 »
4. Has anyone here actually bought the drop zone 64 pack and accessories? I know most people here, for likely good reason, don't like the CP Gear kit. However, is the price difference ($700 CAD for a fully outfitted DZ pack and frame, vs. ~$250 for CP Gear + frame) really justifiable? Furthermore, in regards to the DZ pack, what set of modular packs have proven most handy in the field? Im in the infantry reserve, with aspirations to go abroad, and while I hope to use this pack for civilian purposes, I would also like to buy something that could hold up under the rigours of infantry life/training.
If you don't like CPGear, but you don't want to shell out $700, and you want a good '64 pack, go to http://whitespace-solutions.net/pages/11/index.htm and buy theirs. I did it. Cost me $218 shipped and I got the whole deal (including '64 frame and A7A valice straps!).
The bag is A1-quality with semi-proofed CADPAT cordura. It has 5 pockets on the outside, each is about the standard mess-tin size. The flap has a velcro-accessed pocket underneath. The bag itself is strapped tightly and zap-strapped for security to the frame. The waist belt and shoulder pads are nicely padded and very wide for comfort.
I bought a rucksack cover from CPGear to go along with it and damn does it all look good!
BDR Scheer, R.

Offline Gumby

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #212 on: April 13, 2006, 22:45:43 »
If you don't like CPGear, but you don't want to shell out $700, and you want a good '64 pack, go to http://whitespace-solutions.net/pages/11/index.htm and buy theirs. I did it. Cost me $218 shipped and I got the whole deal (including '64 frame and A7A valice straps!).
The bag is A1-quality with semi-proofed CADPAT cordura. It has 5 pockets on the outside, each is about the standard mess-tin size. The flap has a velcro-accessed pocket underneath. The bag itself is strapped tightly and zap-strapped for security to the frame. The waist belt and shoulder pads are nicely padded and very wide for comfort.
I bought a rucksack cover from CPGear to go along with it and damn does it all look good!

The site is down, are they coming back?  I wanted to look into one of those.  Thanks
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Offline Lerch

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #213 on: April 14, 2006, 01:50:37 »
They'll be coming back, don't worry. You may be able to reach the gentleman at this email;
kitguru@rogers.com

Anyways, here's pictures of my ruck for those interested.
The front and main bag note the addition of two more pouches to the main bag.

The back and shoulder straps these are some beefy straps.

The valice straps made from A7A cargo straps!
BDR Scheer, R.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #214 on: April 14, 2006, 10:25:46 »
BIG QUESTION:   Where are you getting the A7A Straps?

They are next to impossible to get in the system.
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Offline DropZone

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #215 on: April 14, 2006, 17:06:32 »
Gentlemen,

Regarding the Alice / 64 frame. The 64 frame is actually a U.S. Army frame developed and adopted by our southern neighbors in 61 and officially abandoned in 67. It was designed for winter warfare to prevent sweat and overheating of the soldiers. The theory at the time was..being an "open" frame the sweat would evaporate and the soldier would stay drier and warmer.

The 64 was pressed into service in Vietnam where its weaknesses became legendary, forcing the ALICE frame to replace it in 67. The ALICE frame designers were given design parameters that insisted that  existing textile components interchange as there were thousands of pieces still in the system. The ALICE frame is essentially a beefed up 64. Its younger brother if you will. Given the choice between a used issue 64 (or an unused one for that matter) and an issue ALICE, buy the ALICE. It is stronger.

Any clown that claims the 64 is more comfortable that an ALICE is an idiot as the mounting dimensions are near identical ... so don't listen to these "experts".

Modular? Modular packs allow the user to select the pockets and to arrange the pockets as they see fit..not what the "designer" thinks is ideal. If you think the designer knows more about what you are packing... then go with the designers idea.

Unfortunately he will not be there with you to pack it ;D 

With the current MOLLE/PALS system, properly made, the system is stronger than a "sewn on pocket". Remember, a "sewn on pocket" is only held on by stitching around its perimeter. A MOLLE/PALS pocket has stitch points all over its footprint, spreading the load over a larger area, hence more strength.

How many 64 packs does Drop Zone sell? We have 15 people working here and four independent sales reps...so some one is buying them along with alot of our other products. We do production runs of 50 at a time and do at least four runs a year.

Expense? One point to illustrate why we charge more: Unlike the photo's shown above, we use mil-spec webbing to run through our nylon buckles, not herring bone seam binding tape. Notice the faint line down the middle of the tape. This is a special weave that allows the sewing machine operator to fold the tape over an exposed fabric edge. This tape will eventually exhibit a tendency to "rollover" or "fold" when running through buckles at its designed in fold line! Very frustrating when you are in a hurry to get moving!

While the binding tape shown in the photos, to the builders credit, looks to be mil-spec tape, it will fuzz up and fray when run repeatedly through buckles. This binding tape has no resin to reduce fraying. Did the builder get a deal on this stuff? Hell I do not know his motivation for using it, but I do know it is wrong item for that application.

Oh, but what the hell.....its a great deal ::)

Yes, there is no doubt, compared to garage and basement operators Drop Zone Tactical products are expensive, but at least we know what materials should be used for what applications.

My staff and myself rest easy knowing that our customers are the ultimate beneficiaries of this knowledge.

Right now we are getting "rush" orders for chest rigs, pouches, and packs, to replace failing "bargain" brand gear the lads bought before deployment to the combat zone. Hardly a day goes buy when a soldier on leave doesn't come in to our showroom with a shopping list for him and his buddies........

I guess the old adage still holds true......you get exactly what you pay for.

Kindest Regards

Brian Kroon

President
Drop Zone Tactical division of
Spike Camp Wilderness Safety Supply Ltd.

www.dropzonetactical.com

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Offline riggermade

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #216 on: April 14, 2006, 19:53:03 »
Just a note about the webbing... I have made a couple of hundred sets of these pads although this isn't one of mine and there has never been a complaint regardless of what was said above.  There has been no complaints with this set of padding and there are still people ordering it
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Offline GO!!!

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #217 on: April 14, 2006, 23:58:57 »
riggermade,

I think you and brian are selling to different markets.

You make an adequate product for your customers (sea cadets, occasional hikers) and Brian makes his for professionals who use it every day.

I would not compare the two, having owned a variety of DZ products, and knowing that spike camp/drop zone has a client list that proves it.
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Offline riggermade

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #218 on: April 15, 2006, 08:08:29 »
Go

How would you know who I make my stuff for.

For your information I started making this for the RCR and there is some of them at evry unit here in Petawawa and I can ensure you it is quality stuff as the customers I have seem to think so

If you are a fan of his stuff that is fine but don't insinuate the quality of my work is inferior
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Offline Lerch

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #219 on: April 16, 2006, 04:05:30 »
Personally, I've lots of kit with 'rollover' tape straps and webbing. None have run into any problems. I love it because it's alot easier to pull tight. If it starts to 'fuzz' I just grab a lighter and solve the problem.

I'll complain when something goes wrong that I can't fix. Till then :salute:
BDR Scheer, R.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #220 on: April 16, 2006, 09:59:19 »
I'm still wondering where you are getting your A7A Straps ?
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #221 on: April 16, 2006, 11:59:15 »
I'm still wondering where you are getting your A7A Straps ?

A roll of web, a box of buckles and a sewing machine? As with many things in the army, the finished item may be in short supply, but the components are plentiful and readily available through the system. Just gotta take time to build them.
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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #222 on: April 16, 2006, 23:20:04 »
I got a bunch of A7A straps from a surplus store in Edmonton.


Dropzone, AFAIK ALICE did not come into service in the US Army till 1974, during the Vietnam War most units used the Light Weight Rucksack ( http://mooremilitaria.com/Ruck%20Front.JPG ), some troops picked up ARVN Rucks though. Other units like the Ranger Companies got Tropical Rucksacks when they came out( http://mooremilitaria.com/Tropical%201.JPG ) which kinda look like a medium ALICE pack, but aren't the same an used a X frame.

Offline DropZone

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Re: Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread
« Reply #223 on: April 17, 2006, 13:09:30 »
MikeL

Your absolutely right. The ALICE frame was not general issue until 1974. But the ALICE program was started in 1967, with the switch from canvas to nylon. The "64" was used in Viet Nam up to '73 due to a pack frame shortage, hence the use of the ARVN "tropical frame" that you described was also used

I reference pages 159 through 173 of Shelby Stanton's excellent book U.S. Army Uniforms of the Vietnam War. Published by Stackpole Books 1989,1992. There are great photos and technical drawings of these packs in Stantons book.

Kind Regards
Brian Kroon
www.dropzonetactical.com

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Offline Lerch

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Re: Additional Questions
« Reply #224 on: April 19, 2006, 02:36:56 »
Any idea when said site will be back up?

I need a new pack for camping/hiking, and 218$ sounds pretty good to me (they don't pay me THAT much).
Buzz kitguru@rogers.com he's the bloke who hooked me up. He'll take paypal which is nice.
BDR Scheer, R.