Author Topic: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades  (Read 60598 times)

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Offline GDF 005

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My first post here, been CBT Arms for 11 years, PPCLI guy has it right, you joined the Army/CF. This does not qualify you to a desk job/ spec pay for passing Basic"Training" Spending 2 years in LPC's should start to weed out the wannabe's from the pers who are commited. All that I have to say.

Offline boondocksaint

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Twice this month, I agree with Teddy  ;)
In the company of soldiers I don't have to pretend to be the person Im not, Or strike that pose, however well intentioned, that is expected by those who have not known me under arms. In the company of soldiers all my crimes are forgiven-I am safe-I am known-I am home-In the company of soldiers.

Offline Bigmac

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     Recent article below clarifying General Hillier's ideas.

Quote
Chief of defence fires up rhetoric on plans to drum up more military personnel for deadly Afghan combat
Oct. 27, 2006. 01:00 AM
BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU


OTTAWA—As sailors and air force personnel nervously wonder if they could soon find themselves assigned to the dangerous Afghan mission, Canada's top soldier is offering a new incentive — it could be good for your career.

Gen. Rick Hillier, the chief of defence staff, went on the offensive yesterday to defend controversial shakeups to the military ranks meant to drum up more personnel to fulfill the country's commitment in Afghanistan.

He took the unusual step of writing letters to the editors of Canadian newspapers to lay out his explanation for the looming changes and dangle an inducement for those tapped to go.

Time spent on Canada's most demanding and dangerous mission since the Korean War could help a soldier get ahead, he says.

"We are looking at all options that will allow us to augment the infantry's ranks with minimum impact on other services and on our serving members' career progression," Hillier wrote.

"In fact, the operational experience will have a significant positive impact," he said.

And he continues the sales pitch to potentially reluctant personnel, saying they're "part of one big team."

Hillier concedes that personnel "in every part of the Canadian Forces" can expect to be tapped for the Afghanistan mission that runs to February 2009.

"Logistics, military police, signallers and medics spring to mind — even though they are not in operational units," wrote Hillier, who spoke to a Commons committee this week about the changes, but declined to speak with the media afterward.

"We are willing to shrink headquarters, task every wing, station, base and unit to ensure specialists are available, trained and deployable to do the job," he said.

"We have extremely competent men and women throughout our organization and we want to make sure they are all given an opportunity to contribute, without asking any single one to carry an inordinate share." However, he did reiterate his pledge that sailors and air force personnel won't be turned into combat soldiers, but instead carry out support roles.

"We will find the right spot for each member."

His letter details the broad sweep of the many measures under consideration at defence headquarters. For example, former military personnel are being encouraged to re-enrol "under flexible terms for service in Canada or overseas."

Troops can expect to serve longer tours of duty. Combat troops will continue to serve six months, but soldiers in other functions "may see the length of their tour being extended for a total of nine months or longer."


Word of the changes has sparked controversy this week. Some critics have charged that the military was ill-equipped and forced to resort to "desperate measures" to drum up the needed troops.

But yesterday, the military prompted more questions with news that it was even easing the fitness testing of applicants seeking a military career.
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Offline GAP

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Offline Bigmac

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Offline Teddy Ruxpin

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Quote
Hillier concedes that personnel "in every part of the Canadian Forces" can expect to be tapped for the Afghanistan mission that runs to February 2009.

"Logistics, military police, signallers and medics spring to mind — even though they are not in operational units," wrote Hillier, who spoke to a Commons committee this week about the changes, but declined to speak with the media afterward.

"We are willing to shrink headquarters, task every wing, station, base and unit to ensure specialists are available, trained and deployable to do the job," he said.

"We have extremely competent men and women throughout our organization and we want to make sure they are all given an opportunity to contribute, without asking any single one to carry an inordinate share." However, he did reiterate his pledge that sailors and air force personnel won't be turned into combat soldiers, but instead carry out support roles.

Is the CDS not saying exactly what some of us *ahem* have been saying here?  See my previous post...  Why all the media spin?  Oh yeah  ::)
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Offline ArmyVern

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Is the CDS not saying exactly what some of us *ahem* have been saying here?  See my previous post...  Why all the media spin?  Oh yeah  ::)
Totally agreed Teddy. That listing seems like a whole bunch of purple trades to me.
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Signallers is the only thing I am thinking about.   A Naval Communicator pretty much does the same job, U know there will be some comms at work freaking out over this. 

I read that as Signallers posted to places like Comox/Greenwood or other non Army field units.  We have seen several SIGOP's from ESQ already make the trip over, some have completed 2 tours.

But I agree guys working in Purple trades shouldn't be surprised if they end up going over.

Offline hank011

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From what I have seen there are always ten times more volunteers than positions. This is amongst 226 and 227 techs(since we are talking purple trades). The last tour that we were offered was Kabul, they turned down 12 people to submit one name...and he was told he wasn't needed.
If there is a personnel crunch in the Army they sure arent looking very hard for replacements. ???
I like the motto "If you're not deployable, you're not employable". It says tough things on the surface but never commits that we will either gainfully employ or deploy the individual. How accurate is that!
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CDS Explains What's What Re: Re-roling, Deployment Lengths, Etc.
« Reply #334 on: November 02, 2006, 06:44:19 »
Misconceptions and misreporting (hopefully) dealt with, all in one column - I've highlighted some points that'll appeal to the "more teeth, less tail" caucus of Army.ca enthusiasts.  As usual, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

Forces deployment: for the record
CDS Gen Hillier, Halifax Chronicle-Herald, 2 Nov 06
HCH link - Permalink, if HCH link expires

Much has been said in recent days on how the Canadian Forces (CF) intends to meet its commitments in Afghanistan utilizing the maximum number of men and women in uniform to therefore minimize the number of times a soldier will have to deploy to that country. While this debate has gone on, there has been much speculation as to our intentions, the breadth and depth of any actions we might be contemplating, and often criticism of the effects that may result. Given the variety of opinions expressed, and the obviously keen interest, I thought it would be useful to put on record a bit of context in the aim of better informing the debate.

While we are looking at various options to achieve the goal – balancing the demand and thus minimizing the number of an individual’s combat deployments – our guiding principle remains that military missions are Canadian Forces missions and will involve all parts of the Canadian Forces. We have extremely competent men and women throughout our organisation and we want to make sure they are all given an opportunity to contribute, without asking any single one to carry an inordinate share.

To put the right person with the right training in the right position is a complex task – but, more important, a necessary one. Our intention is to make the smartest and the most sustainable use of our resources.

Our mission in Afghanistan differs from others in the past, in that the structure required to support the troops involved in active operations is much larger. That support structure, however, does not need to be entirely operated by army personnel, and that, in past operations, has been the default setting. We already have personnel from the navy and the air force in some of these support positions and, as you know, reservists, who are also an important part of this mission, both in combat and support roles.

Part of the solution to ensure we meet our commitments will simply be to do what we are already doing, this time on a larger scale, both in terms of numbers and in terms of where we look for these people, utilizing people from every part of the Canadian Forces in their primary role – logistics, military police, signallers and medics spring to mind – even though they are not in operational units. Thus, we are willing to shrink headquarters, task every wing, station, base and unit to ensure specialists are available, trained and deployable to do the job.

Second, making available combat arms soldiers from traditional static jobs, to ensure our units are filled, will occur. We’ll live with smaller headquarters to do this.

Third, recruiting and the efficient training of those combat arms soldiers already in the pipeline will ease the individual burden, as will the opportunity for former Canadian Forces members in our Supplementary Reserve to re-enrol under flexible terms for service in Canada or overseas.

Temporarily employing uniformed personnel in other than their primary role, re-roling them, will also be an option and is not something new to the military when it comes to adapting to changing situations. Our military personnel are extremely capable, and their training allows them to perform duties effectively that extend beyond their primary roles. This happens daily not only in operations, but also in non-operational functions in headquarters and support areas.

It is clear that re-roling must be done smartly to be effective. Infantry personnel employed in non-combat roles in Canada can be made available for deployment by replacing them in their current positions by navy, air force, reserve and civilian personnel. We are looking at all options that will allow us to augment the infantry’s ranks with minimum impact on other services and on our serving members’ career progression. In fact, the operational experience will have a significant positive impact.

Our fine members wearing the uniform do so proudly and with the understanding that they are part of one big team. Most of them have already been employed in the past in other than their primary roles and they know this is part of our business. We are not looking at taking trained sailors and air force personnel and making soldiers out of them. We will find the right spot for each member. If it makes sense to train temporarily as infantry for some people who have not yet begun trades training, we will consider it. But once again, this will be done only after careful consideration of effects, and only if taking such action would provide an effective and more timely result than those actions that we already employ.

The length of deployment is also something we are looking at. Troops participating in active or combat operations in Afghanistan will continue to deploy for approximately six months. Troops involved in other functions may see the length of their tour being extended for a total of nine months or longer. This, as well, is not something new. We already have some members in Afghanistan serving one-year tours. Brigadier-General David Fraser, the Task Force Afghanistan Commander is one of them. As Commander Multi-National Division (South West) in Bosnia, I served there for 12 months. The relationship building at these levels of command takes time, so in order to get the positive effect we seek, longer command tours are necessary.

Some changes will occur sooner than others, but we don’t expect they will affect the current rotation in Afghanistan. We will make the logical and sensible choices to ensure we fulfil our commitment, take care of our troops and continue to assist the Afghan people on their way to a better life, free of oppression and violence. Canadians can be assured that the troops we send to Afghanistan will continue to be trained to the highest standard and ready for the challenges ahead.

- edit:  fixed spelling in subject line -
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 06:51:09 by milnewstbay »
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Offline 3rd Horseman

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Re: CDS Explains What's What Re: Re-roling, Deployment Lengths, Etc.
« Reply #335 on: November 02, 2006, 12:05:58 »
Interesting article sounds like he has some good solutions.

I would suggest two points he missed that may help.

One - Go beyond sup reserve and invite back the wounded and injured soldiers who have been released that could work in the training system. I for one was released medically while sitting in a training position which I could do with my med issues just could not run around like a 19 year old anymore.

Two - Change the the deployment cycle to meet the enemy at its weakest. That would mean going back to the spring fall deployments not the  summer winter changes that appear to serve no strategic aim other than the system was geared for that since IFOR deployment Jan 05.
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Offline paracowboy

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Re: CDS Explains What's What Re: Re-roling, Deployment Lengths, Etc.
« Reply #336 on: November 02, 2006, 12:24:46 »
One - Go beyond sup reserve and invite back the wounded and injured soldiers who have been released that could work in the training system. I for one was released medically while sitting in a training position which I could do with my med issues just could not run around like a 19 year old anymore.
being done already.
...time to cull the herd.

Offline 3rd Horseman

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Re: CDS Explains What's What Re: Re-roling, Deployment Lengths, Etc.
« Reply #337 on: November 02, 2006, 12:48:00 »
Para,

   Thats good news, I have not heard of the program, do you have any info on that program? I know guys are still being released out of key training places and some converstations have occured at the local base to bring back some key SME people for training but due med cats they were told they could not. Also how would they bring them back? Those that are beyond Sup Res are not med cat to even be in the Cadets let alone Sup Res.
Sanctuary is as hard to find and as difficult to walk on as a razors edge

Offline paracowboy

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Re: CDS Explains What's What Re: Re-roling, Deployment Lengths, Etc.
« Reply #338 on: November 02, 2006, 13:10:26 »
Para,

   Thats good news, I have not heard of the program, do you have any info on that program? I know guys are still being released out of key training places and some converstations have occured at the local base to bring back some key SME people for training but due med cats they were told they could not. Also how would they bring them back? Those that are beyond Sup Res are not med cat to even be in the Cadets let alone Sup Res.
all above my pay grade. I don't have hard facts, and can only supply RUMINT, and considering it affects people's lives, I don't think it right to do so. (As I'm in the beginning stages of the process, I'll keep the boards info'd as applicable.)
...time to cull the herd.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #339 on: November 02, 2006, 13:24:43 »
It's called contracting out - hiring pers outside the miltiary to provide training for the military.  Trg billets are partially intended to provide relief for field force soldiers - giving them a break from deployments.  Filling HQs and trg positions with medically unfit pers just increases the burden on everyone else.

That being said, DND is noptoriously bad at doing such things.  See, for example, the CITT ruling at http://www.citt-tcce.gc.ca/procure/determin/pr2g008_e.asp, where one bidder successfully complained that serving members working inthe shop that was contracting out skewed the playing field.

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline MarkOttawa

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CDS Hillier on Re-roling: "Forces deployment: for the record"
« Reply #340 on: November 02, 2006, 15:43:24 »
By Gen. Hillier himself.  I won't try to excerpt in order that no possible distortion occurs.

TheChronicleHerald.ca     
HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA | Thursday November 2, 2006
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/538154.html

Mark
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Offline EX_RCAC_011

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Re: CAN Def Min Proposes Limiting AFG ROTOs to One per Soldier
« Reply #341 on: November 02, 2006, 16:10:15 »
Maybe they should start clearing out the schools in the CF. I am reg force infantry posted to a school and have never been to A-Stan yet. My last tour was Haiti in 04 (for a half tour). I know task force 1-07 is undermanned but no one has canvassed the infantry at my unit to see if we would be willing to go. In my opinion all reg force staff should be replaced by those who have the best and latest experience.

I couldn't agree more.I constantly hear the CF/media talking about finding serviceable troops to go to Afghanistan.Yet I look around the armoured school and see many many people who have not deployed to theatre in years.3 years for myself actually.I have put in memorandums requesting to return,one reason being I have not yet deployed and have not got the response I was expecting.I'm still "up in the air" on going back.

As for the armoured school we NEED guys who are current on op's as possible.Our jobs as armoured recce has changed a lot.And there is a lot of difference in a member reading a report and disseminating the info to students and a member disseminating personal experience to augment the lessons learned.

If you have no Afghanistan time you should be posted in my opinion.Someone just seemed to over look the schools.
And no MOST of the schools are full of fit prepared soldiers unlike the not so distant past.

I have not deployed in three years.
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Offline geo

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #342 on: November 02, 2006, 18:33:52 »
Here is a new wrinkle in the system

It would appear that some industrious CF individuals are taking all of the parental leave that they can so that they can avoid the deployment ..........

Sheesh!
Chimo!

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #343 on: November 02, 2006, 18:37:16 »
How would that help?  A CO has the right to deny parental leave or recall someone, with 5 days notice, from parental leave for operational reasons (just had my briefing  ;))

Blame the CO for approving it, not the member.

Offline geo

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #344 on: November 02, 2006, 18:38:55 »
Am supposed to get my briefing on the "problem" tomorrow
will post when I get the details
Chimo!

Offline Haggis

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #345 on: November 02, 2006, 19:34:51 »
It would appear that some industrious CF individuals are taking all of the parental leave that they can so that they can avoid the deployment ..........

Sheesh!

Well, then, they can watch my kids while I go!  Hooyah!!  "Pack kiddies, you're goin' to visit your new uncle for six months.  Don't forget your pet dobermans.  ;D"
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline retiredgrunt45

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #346 on: November 02, 2006, 21:59:34 »
All i can say after reading this subject in it's entirety, is i'm glad that i'm retired and to damn old to be re-enrolled.

 If the arm chair generals in "Toon town" go through with this rebadging fiasco and think it's going to succeed, their in for a shock. :o

 What a mess.
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Offline tasop_999

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #347 on: November 02, 2006, 22:56:40 »
I read the article by the CDS today and it made sense for the most part.  I hope things stay in the common sense vein, because I know that things can get really silly really quick in this outfit.  Now maybe this is me being a little jaded, but I'll give everyone a little example of some fantastic foolishness I experienced a few years ago. 

No doubt there are some people here who went on Op Peregrine out in BC.  Our particular wave, deployed from Esquimalt, was kitted with everything you could want for living in a camp...even one of those nice cots (I actually slept really well on that thing!).  What we didn't get sent with was cold weather kit for the high mountains in which we were working in the beginning of September.  We were also working the fire line with NCDs on as our primary uniform.  While both stylish and fire-resistent, this kit is not really meant for dirty work in the field...not to mention the Strathconas we were working near were laughing at us the whole time because we looked like fools.  Everyone there wished that we could have got our hands on a set of green combats.  The only army green clothing we received was raingear, which did come in handy.

I guess my point is that I hope whatever happens with the Afghanistan mission, re-roleing, and any other creative manning solutions coming out of the smoke cloud around NDHQ, I hope the brass makes sure that everyone going overseas is properly kitted, trained, and totally ready (including some army work-ups) for the mission.  If people from my branch of the service are heading over I want them to be fully prepared for whatever comes from Uncle Mohammed Omar.  I have faith at this moment that things will not get too silly, especially when there are so many Canadian lives at stake.
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #348 on: November 03, 2006, 03:26:23 »
I guess my point is that I hope whatever happens with the Afghanistan mission, re-roleing, and any other creative manning solutions coming out of the smoke cloud around NDHQ, I hope the brass makes sure that everyone going overseas is properly kitted, trained, and totally ready (including some army work-ups) for the mission.  If people from my branch of the service are heading over I want them to be fully prepared for whatever comes from Uncle Mohammed Omar.  I have faith at this moment that things will not get too silly, especially when there are so many Canadian lives at stake.

These are not evil or stupid people - in fact they are us, just in different jobs.  It will all work out.
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Offline geo

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Re: Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades
« Reply #349 on: November 03, 2006, 08:46:19 »
Tasop,
Prior to deployment overseas, there is a battery of things to take care of - Kit & training being only two of them..... If you get the nod, you'll be prepared - otherwise they won't send ya.
Chimo!