Topic: Tory defence critic blasts use of grenades in Afghanistan

[Britney Spears]

Can anyone confirm O'Connor's allegations?  I found this on another forum, but couldn't find a direct source. I hope this isn't violating the board rules.

Tory defence critic blasts use of grenades in Afghanistan

Tue Oct 18 2005

By David Pugliese
OTTAWA -- Canada's commando force is violating the spirit of the landmine treaty brokered years ago by the Liberal government by using specialized explosives that could maim and kill innocent people on the battlefield, says the Conservatives' defence critic.

Conservative MP Gordon O'Connor said Joint Task Force 2 has purchased a new grenade launcher designed to offer the similar sort of protection once afforded by the now banned anti-personnel landmines. The 40-millimetre launcher is able to hurl grenades at a high rate, putting up a wall of shrapnel and explosives against approaching enemy troops.

However, O'Connor said the unit did not buy the kind of grenades that later self-destruct if they fail to explode on the battlefield -- a mistake that puts civilians at risk.

"Unexploded grenades can maim and kill innocent people just like mines," O'Connor, a retired brigadier general, said in the Commons yesterday.

O'Connor, who supports the purchase of the grenade launchers, blamed what he calls the government's poorly planned decision to commit troops to Kandahar, Afghanistan, next year to fight the Taliban.

"This is a pattern of rush, rush, rush and darn the consequences," he said of a series of emergency military equipment purchases approved by the Liberals.
"They're darn fine weapons," he said of the new grenade launchers bought by JTF2. "It's just they're going to be firing these grenades, all of them won't be going off, so they're going to be leaving these grenades around on the battlefield, which to me are the equivalent of anti-personnel landmines."

O'Connor also said the government has ordered additional protection for the army's light-armoured vehicles but those protection kits are older technology. He questioned why the latest armour-protection kits were not bought, again linking it to the government's quick decision to take on the riskier Kandahar mission next year.

The Defence Department has launched an emergency purchase program to buy everything from armoured-patrol vehicles to howitzers in preparation for the February mission. The estimated price tag is $170 million.

Defence officials did not respond to a request for comment on the JTF2 equipment.

-- CanWest News Service

* Mike Bobbitt : Edited to ensure author's name appears properly.

[Kat Stevens [5]]

comparing  UXO to deliberately concealed indiscriminate killers (i.e A/P mines),  is ludicrous.  An unexploded grenade is no more a mine than an unexploded HE round is.

[ArmyVern]

Can anyone confirm O'Connor's allegations?   I found this on another forum, but couldn't find a direct source. I hope this isn't violating the board rules.

No rules broken Britney it's published on DND own Spotlight on Military News Website below:

http://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/spotlight/2005/10/18/spotnews_e.html

and the original article from the Ottawa Citizen is linked here:

http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/051018/cit/051018ab.htm

[Britney Spears]

Thanks.


I never even knew sefl destructing 40mm grenades existed. I don't think the ones we use in the 203s do, although I must admit it never came up during any training that I've done....

[Kat Stevens [5]]

If a self destruct capability is the defining characteristic of "acceptable" ordnance, there are plenty of short lifespan A/P and A/Tk mines out there.   Fire up the platinum card, boys!

Edited for clarity

[KevinB]

WHAT AN IDIOT...

 My god, lets ban Artillery projectiles, Aircraft bombs -- heck lets ban war, it may kill...

 

[Slim]

Take the silly twit out to A'stan, drop him iin a patrol and tell him just as you leave the safety of the main gate that the last patrol was ambushed coming back...The only reason thay escaped was their almost prolific use of grenades...Of course this patrol doesn't have any due to some POLITICAL manueverings of the official opposition party back home...

I wonder what he'd say then?

[Britney Spears]

Well, I don't think his suggestion is all that unreasonable, IF that type of grenade actually existed. I've just gone through the American pam, and it mentions nothing about the rounds self destructing, so I presume their ammo isn't any different from ours.

Thus, I am asking any ammo techs to confirm if such a round is widely available.

[KevinB]

There are area denial muntions that have time expiry fusing - in that once the time expires they self destruct (in theory - however IIRC they still have a large percentage failure rate)

 However Mk19 Hi-Vel 40mm ammo IS NOT area denial - the 40mm HEDP and others are impact bursting munitions.  So if the round in littering the battelfield it is a UXO that was due to a failed fuze - and unless one is building a seperate (and costly) minerature time elapse fuze inside - the dud would still be a dud - if the original PD fuze has misfired (I'm not an ammo-tech so maybe one can chime into the relaity of doing so).

 

[Anthony]

Keep in mind he supported the purchase, it's just the ammo type with which he has a problem. I don't see a problem with changing the ammo type to one that is safer for the populace in the long-term if they have similar effectiveness. I wouldn't be surprised if such ammo was merely overlooked due to the liberals scrambling to equip the upcoming mission; although that's speculation on my part.

He's a retired brigadier general, and everytime I see him in question period he's fighting for the betterment of the military, so I wouldn't be so quick to call him an idiot

[Infanteer]

I don't see a problem with changing the ammo type to one that is safer for the populace in the long-term if they have similar effectiveness.

If we're that picky (worrying about munitions that may not detonate), we should just pack up and go home.

He's a retired brigadier general, and everytime I see him in question period he's fighting for the betterment of the military

By sending us to Green Bay, condeming the emergency buy of things like the 'hook, and denying us a weapon that may have duds?  He's single-handedly undermining any support I had for the Conservative Party of Canada....

[KevinB]

Infanteer nailed it IMHO.

 I'm a BIG C conservative - but I am not blind to the fact that the gov't is actually (for once) delivering items we need.  Partisan politics have their place - and places they should not be.  In my opinion the Conservatives are wasting valuable ammunition in a poor area to fight...

And yes ANYONE that would attempt to restrain the weapons we use in a warzone IMHO is an IDIOT.
(I dont even like the mine treaty - no one listens to it but us so... we are more at risk.)

[48Highlander]

You know, this could actually work for us.   Now all we need is someone to point out that the C-13 hand granade has about a 10,000% higher dud-rate than the MK-67, and maybe we'll be able to scrap those damn things once and for all.

[Slim]

You know, this could actually work for us.   Now all we need is someone to point out that the C-13 hand granade has about a 10,000% higher dud-rate than the MK-67, and maybe we'll be able to scrap those darn things once and for all.

What do you expect from munitions with a '13' in the title!

[JasonH]

If we're that picky (worrying about munitions that may not detonate), we should just pack up and go home.

From what you said and it coming from you I'm not suprised, war is war - innocent people die.  But last time I checked aren't we suppose to be bringing the number down on casualties from Collateral Damage?  Isn't that why most bombs are 'guidance' instead of 'dumb'?  Than again, 40mm 'nade .. would be interesting if guided.  But nontheless I don't see the problem with that switching ammo to possibly save a limb or life of an innocent civilian.  Do you honestly?  JTF-2 as we all know very well have the budget to afford it.  Use what they bought for the range.  And pick up a new set for the field.

By sending us to Green Bay, condeming the emergency buy of things like the 'hook, and denying us a weapon that may have duds?  He's single-handedly undermining any support I had for the Conservative Party of Canada....

You should also know better to support any government.