Author Topic: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?  (Read 5238 times)

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Veteran`s son

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Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« on: April 08, 2003, 17:58:00 »
Do many recruits fail Basic Training?

I have no doubt that Basic Training would be very challenging and physically exhausting(I‘m speaking as someone who has not been in the CF, however).

I wonder what percentage of recruits successfully complete Basic Training? Would the percentage be 90-95%, for example?

Again, your information and opinions would be helpful!   :D

Offline Bert

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2003, 10:47:00 »
The recruiter told me about 96% of BMQ recruits pass the course.  The 4% he told me either drop out voluntarily or leave because of medical reasons.

I had a friend that went through basic last summer and said the same thing.  A couple of people decided that the military wasn‘t for them and someone broke a leg.  Another was diagnosed for a disease and had to leave.

He found the course mentally taxing, you don‘t get much sleep, and he suggested to take it easy on or protect your knees and feet as much as possible.  The later weeks of BMQ need your knees and feet to be in good condition.  Insoles are a must apparently.

This post relates to the Regs.

311

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2003, 11:11:00 »
In the BMQ I am in, we started with 18, and with 3 weeks left we have 13.The people who dropped out though, did it because of a schedule conflict like a hockey tournament.

Offline ProPatria05

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2003, 12:28:00 »
I think a distinction needs to be made here between Reg Force BMQ and Reserve BMQ. Not in terms of level of difficulty (I am not in a position to comment), but in terms of the difference in commitment between the two.

Anyone can walk away from the Reserves at any time (unless on emergency call-up). The catalyst for this is often, as is said, conflicts with civvy-life. When you‘re trying to fit 2 lives into one schedule, decisions have to be made. In addition, given that it is so easy to quit, anyone who has not personally committed themselves will quit the first time they have second thoughts.

The Reg Force, on the other hand, is much more difficult to quit (although I won‘t pretend to know the process). So just because Johnny Bloggins had a bad day doesn‘t mean he can decide not to show up tomorrow. As well, the Army IS your life - you‘re not on a school soccer team, or taking violin lessons anymore - so priority conflicts simply do not exist.

For the reasons cited above, I expect that attrition rates on specific BMQ serials will be higher in the Reserves than in the Reg Force. Therefore, when discussing this topic it would be prudent to specify whether you‘re talking about Reg Force or Reserves.

Veteran`s son

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2003, 12:43:00 »
Thank you for the replies on this topic and any additional replies would be great also!

Murph

I was asking about the BMQ for Regular Force.   :)

Gelan

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2003, 20:19:00 »
BMQ is designed to give the recruit every possible opportunity to pass the course. The purpose of the course isn‘t to fail the recruits, it‘s meant to pass the recruits who do well to obey simple orders and instructions. You have to mess up bad(Like failing your C7 handling test multiple times) to be recoursed. It‘s meant as a stepping stone from civvie life to military life. The same goes for the Army SQ course, although that course is a little easier to get rid of people. When you get to your MOC training, that‘s usually where all the "weeding out" comes into play. I know for a fact that it‘s fairly easy to recourse people on the DP1 BIQ. 6 people have dropped off my course and it‘s only been 3 weeks(we haven‘t even hit the field portion yet!). Our instructors expect to graduate a course of about 20-25 of the original 40 soldiers.

Let me know if you want more info.

Offline WB

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2003, 23:13:00 »
More info would be appreciated. With luck, I‘ll be doing my BMQ and BIQ next fall.   :)

Offline portcullisguy

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2003, 14:21:00 »
I will be doing DP1 (Inf) this summer at LFCATC Meaford.  Hopefully, all 13 from my reg‘t will pass, and if motivation were the sole deciding factor, they will!

Sad to say, there are several from my SQ course (in other units) who I not only don‘t think will pass, I am hoping they don‘t!

Part of me really wants the bar to be raised on the next two courses... the remaining 3 weeks of SQ, and the DP1 Infantry this summer.  I see a lot of "max relax" attitudes after the BMQ and the three weekends of SQ I just did.  Especially from recruits who did their BMQ last summer.  Some people didn‘t even bother to get haircuts before showing up for weekend #1 of SQ, and their attitude needed serious adjustment on course.

If they go into the summer with the same attitude, and the course is NOT any harder, then I feel the instructors will be rewarding sloth and carelessness.

But from what I hear about Meaford, I don‘t think there will be any problems.   :)
portcullisguy

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Cpt. Kap

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2003, 13:42:00 »
Gotta agree 100% with Galen above. My BMQ has some really great motivated Troops   :cam:   , a group of reasonably well mannered "grey guys" :warstory:  and a small (thank god) subset of absolute goofs   :confused:  . It is not my place to say but these slack asses tend to drag the rest of us down. Given some of the idiocy I‘ve seen the course staff don‘t seem to be able to washout these leeches. I must assume that the decison to leave must be volentary as we grad in 2 days.

I am quite pleased with my own efforts on BMQ at age 35 and would be ashamed of myself if I gave less than my all. To see 18 year old little pumpkins without the simple IQ to tie thier own shoes and the physical conditioning to hump thier ruck a couple of Kms is somewhat bothersome.

I trust thier home units will get these individuals squared away.

Cpt. Kap

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2003, 13:14:00 »
Just a quick addition to the above - One Candidate was washed out after all   :crybaby:  
It was richly deserved and dispite the absolute best efforts of the staffers.

Point #2 Celebration of awards should be done after the parade in which you recieve them.
Grad parade was even more challenging than expected as the group had a collective brain ache
 -(but still bloody good fun)

Offline Sharpie

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2003, 13:21:00 »
Speaking only from the Reserve side, I beleive there should be a 0% failure rate on BMQ. Speaking with individuals who have taken the old school QL2‘s (one myself) and are or have taught on today‘s BMQ, say that it is now a walk in the park. If all goes well, I will be instructing on a BMQ, or SQ or whatever it‘s called now in the fall and I will find out for myself. But what happened to the approx. 8 weeks in Pet!! Those were courses!

I know these are not 100% feasable within the Reserves as I am unable to take off for a full summer, and I just finished a weekend course, so I don‘t mean to sound like a hipocrate. But these younger kids in or just out of highschool, I say take a summer course, they are more challenging and I feel mould a better Soldier.
~semper paratus~

Offline Bert

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2003, 14:48:00 »
Hey Cpt. Kap.  

Who are the "grey guys" exactly?  Recruits who are older or those who may be borderline on pass\fail?

Any pointers for the older recruits?

Offline Sharpie

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2003, 15:37:00 »
Cpt Cap

Part of a Soldier‘s duty is to motivate Soldiers at or below their level. Perhaps your course‘s Staff was waiting for the Candidates to see if they would use their initiative and motivate these "slack asses" themselves. Builds teamwork. But, sometimes there is nothing you can do, some people just arn‘t cut out for the Military.
~semper paratus~

Cpt. Kap

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2003, 13:26:00 »
Bert -- I appreciate being asked for advice, Just not sure I should be the one giving it. My advise is simple - give nothing other than 100%. I worked very hard each day and the course evaluation reflected a level of success I‘m pleased with. That level of success means alot when you are double the age of some of the recruits.

By "Grey Guy" I simply ment the group of soldiers in the middle of the group. Not excelling, Not failing - just average. A comfortable place to blend in but not a accurate reflection of what you can do.

Sharpey - I hear you my friend. The goofs I spoke of where those who remained sub-standard after the staff and troops did thier level best to help/motivate/put the fear of death into. Fortunately a very rare group. (2 out of 16)

Cameron_Highlander_Ottawa

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2004, 18:53:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Veteran‘s son:
[qb] Do many recruits fail Basic Training?

I have no doubt that Basic Training would be very challenging and physically exhausting(I‘m speaking as someone who has not been in the CF, however).

I wonder what percentage of recruits successfully complete Basic Training? Would the percentage be 90-95%, for example?

Again, your information and opinions would be helpful!    :D  [/qb]
In my BMQ course, we started out at 46 and ended up at 32. I think good number of people that go for basic training aren‘t too sure of what they‘re really getting themselves into and aren‘t really prepared for it. If you are motivated though you will most likely pass BMQ, it‘s not all that hard a course, it just feels weird, but u get used to military life pretty quick.

Offline Pte.Nomercy

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2004, 19:29:00 »
Oh Geez,

I can‘t stand recruits who come off these weakened/weekend BMQ courses.

I‘m not saying they are poor soldiers or anything don‘t get me wrong, if a person wishes to be a good soldiers they will because they have the motivation, drive etc.

However, I find the weekend BMQ courses to be a joke, there is not enough discipline for one, not enough PT and certainly not enough time to teach the recruits everything they need to know, hence, I believe only giving them a negative/slack *** first time military experience, I also think it turns quite a bit of people off too.

A BMQ/QL2 course should be that way it used to be, HARD and in your face. Troops, I‘m referring to reserves, should be sent out to Meaford for the summer there so that it "sinks" into them that they are training to be soldiers and that they are stuck there for the next few weeks, instead of this "I‘m going home Sunday" attitude. I also believe that courses are too short, I do realize the reserves set out to meet people's schedules, but I believe a BMQ course should be more then what....TWENTY DAYS? Come on......

As for when I did my QL2, there was nearly 60 people in my platoon, YES that many! Meaford was overpopulated that year, and by the time the course was over we had some 30 people left. This was because we had good instructors, one of which was a PPCLI sergeant who was in the Yugoslavian conflict and engaged the Croatians and was shelled by artillery for two weeks, while the other was a RCR sergeant who also served in Yugoslavia, was wounded and had a huge scar on his forehead and was so hard his section dropped to 6 people from 15.

Despite this I still wasn't satisfied as I felt that there was still more to learn, I believe courses need to be the way they were, as described by other posts already, it's the only way we can weed out the people wasting our money and replace them with good motivated soldiers.

48Highlander

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2004, 19:44:00 »
There‘s nothing wrong with weekend QL2‘s/BMQ‘s.  The BMQ course is your initial course, it teaches you basic military skills such as marching and handling the C7 rifle.  None of those things need to be taught in a max-aggression environment.  The following QL3 or the new SQ/DP1 courses are different entirely, and those are NOT taught as weekend courses.

My summer course was similar to yours, and we also lost nearly 50% of our initial number.  While this is good for turning out "hard", disciplined soldiers, it creates problems for recruiting, especially in the reserves.  If all courses were run the same way we would never be able to meet the numbers which are expected.  So instead of pushing the troops untill they fall apart in the summers, it‘s now left up to the units to sort out their troops once they‘re fully trained.  I‘m not saying I like it, but it is neccesary.

Offline Pte.Nomercy

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2004, 00:02:00 »
I agree with you 48Highlander,

I‘m not saying that troops should be trained till they fall apart, I‘m saying they should be disciplined and challenged both mentally and physically on these courses which doesn't really happen enough.

My complaint was that after seeing/working with many troops come of these weekend BMQ‘s that some don‘t have a certain level of professionalism that‘s all. I realize that this usually changes after the more difficult summer courses though.

I also know that the numbers are hard to keep and even harder to get, and realize that the recruit courses spaced out through the year prevent the old situation that took place with the QL2/QL3 summers, where troops would do 2 months training, waste $20,000 of tax payers money, and then just quit.

However, I do believe that the weekend courses have some bugs to iron out; I‘ve seen the way those courses are run, and they are getting better over time, so hopefully the stigma of "weekend BMQ" will change and I‘ll be proved wrong.

Offline Bert

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2004, 00:38:00 »
Sorry to break into the debate, and maybe I‘ve got the wrong perspective, but I think you may expect too much for the BMQ courses, regular or reserve.  In no way is recruit graduating BMQ a professional, useful, or trained to be anything yet.  The course contents like the C7, gas mask, drill, etc, are just MERE introductions.  The instructors have to be successful to instill a sense of professionalism, drive, and purpose.  The recruit has to be exposed to military life
for extended periods for it to rub off.
Given that reservists have to pay the bills, pay the rent, keep a full time job with obligations,
and be fresh to face civy life 06:00 AM Monday morning, you can really only do so much on weekend BMQs.  The Unit and future exercises the recruits return to are the opportunities to lead by example and mold the professionalism, drive, and purpose.  There they get the time to understand what drive, disipline, and purpose really are.

Offline Sigs Guy

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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2005, 19:26:51 »
Well, I don't have much to comment on here since I don't have much experience in the army. But I am applying to the reserves, and have my fingers crossed hoping that my application goes smoothly and I can get into BMQ. Right now I'm trying to get as physically fit as possible so I can be all that I can be on the course. I kindof wish that I applied to the reserves when I was 16 when I look back at it. But the fact that some recruits don't give the instructors respect, and alot "quit" when they find out what the army is really about astonishes me. I'm thinking that when I do my BMQ I'll keep my mouth shut, and always listen to what those with above me tell me.
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Re: Do many recruits fail Basic Training?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2005, 00:43:45 »
Those who fail are those who are poorly prepared or those who find out they aren't cut out for a military career.   :'(