Author Topic: Discussion About Maroon Berets? split- more infantry work. Artillery or Armored  (Read 22840 times)

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Offline Journeyman

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Further, airborne and air mobile Arty is coming back as well.
Do you have a source for that?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 09:20:31 by Bruce Monkhouse »

Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 22:14:23 »
JM

2 RCHA and 2 CER are now sporting a Maroon Beret I believe Coy but it could be troop. that is 100% verified by my own 2 eyes, As well as members of 2FD Amb also sporting the Maroon not sure on the number of Medics but I believe 4
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 00:42:11 by BulletMagnet »
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 23:08:05 »
2 RCHA and 2 CER are now sporting a Maroon Beret
Hmmm.... I wonder if it will amount to anything other than a fashion statement -- ie, will there be any actual training/operational role.

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 06:38:51 »
JM

2 RCHA and 2 CER are now sporting a Maroon Beret I believe Coy but it could be troop. that is 100% verified by my own 2 eyes, As well as members of 2FD Amb also sporting the Maroon not sure on the number of Medics but I believe 4

I believe the CER's retained Jump Section/Troop after the disbandment stand down of CAR...
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 06:53:30 »
I believe the CER's retained Jump Section/Troop after the disbandment stand down of CAR...

Are you sure?

I am sure that with the disbandbent of the CAR and the reorg of the SSF to 2 CMBG all those Operational Jump positions were done away with until the Jump Coys were brought back in the Bns.  As far as I know the outlying posns never got reinstated.  Does the RCD have their Jump Troop back?   This may just be a bunch of new Jumpers using their own "initiative" and you know what that could mean.



[Edit:  Mike......Your Spell Check missed my typo of "disbandbent".  ]
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:19:29 by George Wallace »
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 06:57:13 »
Not really sure George but here at the school I have seen all three berets colours with engineer cap badges walking around....
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Offline MCG

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 07:13:03 »
I believe the CER's retained Jump Section/Troop after the disbandment stand down of CAR...
There were "light troops" that contained "jump sections" but there were no designated jump positions to go along with these.  The soldiers all had basic para and often jumped with the 3rd bn, but they still wore green berets.  However, it remained possible for combat engineers to wear the maroon beret if they were posted to a jump position in CFLAWC.

If any regiment has designated jump positions now, that would be a new development.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:17:39 by MCG »

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 08:18:39 »
George, haven't seen any RCDs with the Maroon beret.  Like BulletMagnet said, just been seeing Arty, Engineer and Medics with the Maroon Beret, as well as the pers in the 3RCR Jump Coy(Infantrymen, Sig, etc)

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2011, 08:40:34 »
And you won't see any RCDs with the maroon beret (You never did), but they also had a Jump Troop.  I have a strong suspicion at the moment that these guys are wearing these berets on their own initiative and under lax discipline from their unit RSMs.  (It does happen.)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 08:45:10 by George Wallace »
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 08:58:54 »
Not exactly so. When I was last up visiting 2 RCHA, the regiment had formed an airborne mortar troop in the battery that was affiliated with 3 RCR. There also should be a FOO party as well.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 09:08:01 »
OS

If those posns were authorized by Higher (than the Regiment) I can agree.  If these pers are doing it on their own or as an initiative of the Regt, then it is still wrong.   As I have no inside knowledge of this matter, I really can not be a SME and stand to be corrected if necessary.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2011, 09:56:37 »
If these pers are doing it on their own or as an initiative of the Regt, then it is still wrong.   
Given the number of sightings mentioned above, if this was something being done by individuals or organizations below unit level, then it would have already been stomped down by the Bde CWO or respective unit RSMs.  This is described as being in more than one unit and apparently organizationally based - this is at the very least a formation (brigade) level initiative if not higher.

It may very well be that proper approvals are not in place and authorized jump positions do not exist.  However, the responsibility for that would rest high enough that none of the soldiers (including up to the RSMs) deserve an accusatory finger pointed their way.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2011, 10:11:08 »
Not really sure George but here at the school I have seen all three berets colours with engineer cap badges walking around....

CFSME should ahve four colours, not three - unless the Air Force has been kicked out...
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2011, 10:12:43 »
It may very well be that proper approvals are not in place and authorized jump positions do not exist.  However, the responsibility for that would rest high enough that none of the soldiers (including up to the RSMs) deserve an accusatory finger pointed their way.

I 'd argue the RSM responsibiltiy in this case - dress regs explain who should wear a maroon beret; the RSM should confirm that the conditions in the regulations are being met and respected.
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Offline recceguy

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Hey, here's an idea. Why doesn't someone, who has access, just go ask them. ::)

That, or we could spin this fifty ways to Sunday, get all pissy with each other's opinions while wrapping ourselves around the axle, only to find out no one was right anyway after 14 pages of debate. ;)
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I only hope we can start wearing our "Warrior" badges again.
 
      :nod:



 ;D

Offline George Wallace

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Eeeeeeeek!
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Offline MCG

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2011, 10:34:09 »
I 'd argue the RSM responsibiltiy in this case - dress regs explain who should wear a maroon beret; the RSM should confirm that the conditions in the regulations are being met and respected.
In this case, I suspect pers who's rank is measured in bars have weighed in.  RSMs are the enforcers of dress, but even they must fall in-line when the COs or commanders order differently ... and that warrior badge illustrates this reality quite well.

Offline dapaterson

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There are no positions with the AHYL OSS within 2 RCHA or 2 CER.  AHYL = Basic Para.  Therefore, there is no airborne designated sub-unit within 2 RCHA 2 CER.  Therefore, IAW the CF dress manual, no one within 2 RCHA or 2 CER should wear a maroon beret.


Chapter 6, section 1, para 4e:
Quote
Paratroop Personnel and Airborne Units.
The maroon beret or turban shall be worn
with all orders of dress by qualified
parachutists wearing the army uniform, when
on the posted strength of an airborne unit,
designated airborne sub-unit or element, and
the Canadian Parachute Centre. The maroon
beret or turban is further authorized for wear
by qualified parachutists wearing the army
uniform when on staff, exchange, or liaison
duties, and, while so employed, in receipt of
paratroop allowance.
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I only hope we can start wearing our "Warrior" badges again.
 
      :nod:



 ;D

I still have all three designations. Only ever got bronze, but found a bunch in a drawer when we stopped issueing them.

I'm going to put them all on my Frontiersman tunic when I retire ;D and refuse to give any to the other guys. ;)
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Offline Blackadder1916

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I still have all three designations. Only ever got bronze, but found a bunch in a drawer when we stopped issueing them.

I'm going to put them all on my Frontiersman tunic when I retire ;D and refuse to give any to the other guys. ;)

Wasn't that the official qualifying criteria?
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 11:55:15 »
CFSME should ahve four colours, not three - unless the Air Force has been kicked out...

Well as it pertained to the LF I intentionally left out the Airforce.

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Offline old fart

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2011, 07:25:04 »
Are you sure?

I am sure that with the disbandbent of the CAR and the reorg of the SSF to 2 CMBG all those Operational Jump positions were done away with until the Jump Coys were brought back in the Bns.  As far as I know the outlying posns never got reinstated.  Does the RCD have their Jump Troop back?   This may just be a bunch of new Jumpers using their own "initiative" and you know what that could mean.

[Edit:  Mike......Your Spell Check missed my typo of "disbandbent".  ]

After the disbandment the Airborne Engineer Platoon became part of the Airborne Holding Unit and then for a couple of months under what was called the '3 Cdo Coy Gp.'  After the first airborne exercise (a raid on Camp Argonaught in Gagetown - Ex LETHAL REACH) in June 1995 we moved to 2 CER.  15 jump positions were retained in what was called the Airborne Planning Cell.  The brokered deal of keeping us together fell apart and those lucky enough to keep a jump position were dispersed across 2 CER. 

Although we did our best to keep things going it was not easy...ex platoon members jumping on cas para status being a bit peeved etc.  I left in 98, and as far as I know the planning cell positions were deleted by the CME branch a couple years later.

I am intrigued about the mention of Maroon berets being worn again in 2CER (I would be surprised) and will follow that up with the RSM, who is an airborne sapper and a section commander of mine in his younger days.   Previously there was only one sapper with a maroon beret...and he hangs his hat...in Trenton.
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  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
dapaterson is the closest to the answer.  DP, swing by 19NT...the answer lies therein.  ;)

Offline old fart

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Not from a 2 CER source but from someone with some knowledge of this matter...

"2 CER has, or is in the process of building a troops worth of jumpers.  2 Bde is going with an "enhanced" jump company based around M Coy of 3 RCR.  They will be however on Cas Para only for now but have all the rights and privileges (maroon beret/t-shirt).  Its hoped that when 2 Bde becomes more "air mobile" then the position will become hard para."

More to follow, but the notion that the RSM is permitting dress violations or letting soldiers wear whatever they please is laughable. ...and all the posts on that aspect just garbage/useless waffle. 







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Offline old fart

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More on same....

2 CER have established a 31 man Airborne Fd Tp...so maroon t-shirts on PT and beret's are the order of the day...they started re-building the capability last Nov IAW the Bde Comd's intent with regard to airborne and air mobile capabilities. By all accounts things are going very well.

Amen to that...AIRBORNE etc....
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Offline jeffb

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There are no positions with the AHYL OSS within 2 RCHA or 2 CER.  AHYL = Basic Para.  Therefore, there is no airborne designated sub-unit within 2 RCHA 2 CER.  Therefore, IAW the CF dress manual, no one within 2 RCHA or 2 CER should wear a maroon beret.

I'm away from work on a course so I can't get the exact details however, the TC of 2RCHA's jump troop is sitting in a room next to me right now. E Troop jumped recently on the Bde Ex Spartan Bear. Based on the fact that the Bde Comd tasked 2RCHA with this jump, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this is an actual capability and not just something that CO 2RCHA made up. I can also say that on the 5 exercises preceeding Spartan Bear, E Tp has been employed in a dismounted mortar role. Also, there is a FOO party that is wearing maroon berets. So either, the Bde Comd is confused, the RSM and 2 BSM's aren't doing their jobs or in fact, 2RCHA does have a jump capability. (That was rethorical :) )

« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 11:30:18 by jeffb »
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Offline MCG

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... the Bde Comd tasked 2RCHA with this jump, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this is an actual capability and not just something that CO 2RCHA made up.
But at what level comes the authority to assign a jump mandate to a unit or portion thereof?  As I pointed to earlier, this is clearly an initiative higher than unit level.  However, as dapaterson points out – there are signs this initiative may be rolling ahead of formal implementation from the levels that actually do have the authority to look at the requirement and assign such a mandate.  That should not be taken to imply the formal process is not happening, just that such processes take place where most of us cannot see and those processes have a tendency to be somewhat slow.

Offline old fart

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....... However, as dapaterson points out – there are signs this initiative may be rolling ahead of formal implementation from the levels that actually do have the authority to look at the requirement and assign such a mandate......

More waffle....please make it stop....

Same as the comments eluding to RSMs (and COs) or lone soldiers for that matter doing their own thing without the sanction of the CoC (not that you MCG added to the latter)....laughable at best.

The only 'signs" I care about are that this is happening...blessed you can be sure by the CoC above Bde.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Quote
...this initiative may be rolling ahead of formal implementation from the levels that actually do have the authority...

...and it may not. 

As noted earlier, those who would like to get ground truth can find it in 19NT...or ask your director to ask COS(Land Strat) to ask...well, you get the idea.  ;)

Offline recceguy

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...and it may not. 

As noted earlier, those who would like to get ground truth can find it in 19NT...or ask your director to ask COS(Land Strat) to ask...well, you get the idea.  ;)

Thx Duey. No one ever takes me seriously :facepalm:  ;D

I really don't know how much easier it could get. However, far be it from me to kibosh a good speculation thread with a simple solution like 'Ask someone involved' ;)
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Offline PanaEng

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Hey, here's an idea. Why doesn't someone, who has access, just go ask them. ::)

That, or we could spin this fifty ways to Sunday, get all pissy with each other's opinions while wrapping ourselves around the axle, only to find out no one was right anyway after 14 pages of debate. ;)
Gee, you take the fun away from a good argument party...

All I want is about 4 cas para spots for 33 CER  ;-)  (maybe even a section)

Chimo!    Airborne!
Now I am SAS or SWAT dude ;-)
see:
Quote from: RHFC_piper ink=topic=51916.msg617784#msg617784 date=1190404708

The 'pana" is a play on the Greek 'pan' meaning 'all' or 'encompassing' - not quite but similar to UBIQUE
some think I just misspelled "para" :-)

Offline RoyalDrew

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PM sent for those who want some background info on this

Offline PanaEng

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Well, here is more info from the trenches (figure of speech)
A young Lt friend from 1 CER has been tasked with standing up a jump troop - he has about 10 pers qualified so far. Similarly for 2 CER.

Chimo! Airborne!
Now I am SAS or SWAT dude ;-)
see:
Quote from: RHFC_piper ink=topic=51916.msg617784#msg617784 date=1190404708

The 'pana" is a play on the Greek 'pan' meaning 'all' or 'encompassing' - not quite but similar to UBIQUE
some think I just misspelled "para" :-)

Offline Prototype

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We work for 3RCR UMT and here are the rules as they have been explained to me (as this is still new)

-We wear maroon berrets
-We support 3RCR
-When the company jumps, we jump
-If we refuse, we lose the berret
-If we don't want to jump anymore, we get posted to another UMT
-If we hold the position for longer than one year, we get White Wings pending approval by 3RCR
-We get paid when we jump, but not jump pay

But there never seems to be enough positions available on the aircraft, and the company only takes one medic with them now.

"Will Close With and Destroy For Money"

Offline Prototype

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... also, we have medics who are BMO qualified and (if I have my way) RECCE qualified. Just like we should have even more combat arms types with TCCC training.
"Will Close With and Destroy For Money"

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Offline ottawaguy25

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We asked about getting a jump course for RCD's and they said it's never going to happen you can't air drop are LAV's

Offline Good2Golf

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  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Interesting Army News story:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/news-nouvelles/story-reportage-eng.asp?id=5463

Love the jumper flailing in the background with his PDB while MBdr Cunningham is debriefing his jump (about 4/5 the way through vid).

Regards
G2G

Offline Petard

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Love the jumper flailing in the background...(about 4/5 the way through vid).



Normal drill, if you have twists in your lines, you kick to get the turning motion to untwist them and get the canopy fully deployed, otherwise you've got a faster rate of decent to deal with

Offline Good2Golf

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  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Normal drill, if you have twists in your lines, you kick to get the turning motion to untwist them and get the canopy fully deployed, otherwise you've got a faster rate of decent to deal with

Indeed.

It was more that the MBdr was describing how smoothly everything went, including deployment of his PDB, and the exact opposite was happening just behind him.

Regards
G2G