Author Topic: Logistic Vehicle Modernization Project - Replacing everything from LUVW to SHLVW  (Read 103236 times)

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Offline MCG

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Problems and ideas related to military procurement are covered in depth here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,26594.0.html

Offline Kirkhill

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Problems and ideas related to military procurement are covered in depth here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,26594.0.html

Apologies for the diversion.
Over, Under, Around or Through.
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Offline Kirkhill

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....
Getting back to the light end of the spectrum and the discussion about a need for a recce/patrol platform in the Iltis size range.  It ended somewhat indecisively with some arguing that we absolutely needed that smaller vehicle for motor recce while others suggested we should not purchase a vehicle "just on the possibility of it having to traverse a narrow street once in a while."

....

Just giving a look at some of the hurdles the Light Battalions are having to face.

I'm inclined to think Iltis might be just what they need.

You can park two of them inside a Chinook and one (if you collapse the roll bar) inside a Cyclone.  You can sling one under a Griffon (for a short distance).

It can carry up to 4 bodies and tow a half tonne trailer ( a half tonne equals a C6 and 10,000 rounds - about right for an MG in SF mode probably the right load for a C16 with ammo).

Maybe it is not right for Day 7 of a deployment but would seem to be a reasonable choice for Day 1 (assuming you're not fighting your way onto ground but rather taking ground and making the other guy come to you.)

Iltis weighs half as much as a G-Wagen and about as much as four loaded Yamaha Grizzly 700s.

Over, Under, Around or Through.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Single small problem with the Cyclone: It is not a transport helicopter. Its insides are already spoken for by the various sensor stations.

Offline dapaterson

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Single small problem with the Cyclone: It is not a transport helicopter. Its insides are already spoken for by the various sensor stations.

Other small problem with the Cyclone:  It doesn't exist in a usable state.
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Offline Kirkhill

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Beyond the "notional" nature of the Cyclone, I understood that part of the design challenge was that the aircraft was to be a "multi-role" platform that could be converted at sea from an ASW vehicle to a Utility vehicle by rolling the AESOPs and TACCO's consoles out of the back.  The conversion was supposed to be reversible.

If that requirement has been set aside then disregard my previous.
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.
"One thing that being a scientist has taught me is that you can never be certain about anything. You never know the truth. You can only approach it and hope to get a bit nearer to it each time. You iterate towards the truth. You don’t know it.”  - James Lovelock

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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I might be wrong, and a SME correct me please, but I am unaware that the Cyclone has a stern ramp. I am only aware of the two side doors to the after cabin, and none of them is big enough to let in a car.

My understanding of the "utility" aspect was that there is enough room in the cabin for passengers in harness seats , that you can sling a machine gun to use as force protection for  boarding teams, and use a door winch for SAR and team insertion.

Offline Kirkhill

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Excuse the continued tangent.



Courtesy of Naval Technology


And from Defense Industry Daily

Quote
The MH-92/ CH-148 Naval Helicopter

The H-92 Superhawk platform Canada chose for its “CH-148 Cyclone” maritime helicopters is a larger derivative of the ubiquitous H-60 family that comprise most of the US Navy’s current fleet. it makes heavier use of rust-proof composite materials, and also sports uprated engines, a rear ramp, and other features that place it in a similar class to Europe’s delayed NH90 NFH model, whose schedule has also slipped until it is also expected to become fully operational around 2013.

Initial Cyclone specifications called for GE’s 3,000 hp class CT7-8C engines, but helicopter weight growth will force another engine upgrade before the final design is ready. Standard self-sealing fuel tanks can carry up to 3,030 kg of fuel, and an in-flight refuelling probe allows in-air refueling for extended range flights.

The 17 cubic meter cabin is fitted with a cargo handling system with a centerline 1,814 kg/ 4,000 pound capacity cargo winch, floor rollers, and cargo tie-down points. A 6 foot-wide aft ramp allows easy and fast loading and unloading of cargo and troops. A 272 kg/ 600 pound capacity hydraulic rescue hoist can reportedly be added to the helicopter if necessary....

These and similar articles form the basis of my understanding.  My apologies if I mislead.
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.
"One thing that being a scientist has taught me is that you can never be certain about anything. You never know the truth. You can only approach it and hope to get a bit nearer to it each time. You iterate towards the truth. You don’t know it.”  - James Lovelock

Offline Kirkhill

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http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/05/video-articulate-this-chainlink-4x4-is-frighteningly-awesome/

On the subject:

Here is the suspension system required for a light vehicle



Video at the link.
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.
"One thing that being a scientist has taught me is that you can never be certain about anything. You never know the truth. You can only approach it and hope to get a bit nearer to it each time. You iterate towards the truth. You don’t know it.”  - James Lovelock

Offline Colin P

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Specialized suspension has been around for a long time, Google some of the British interwar Armoured car drivetrain, Strausser I think it's called?

Offline MCG

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I think the future light vehicle is the alligator farthest from the boat.

Offline cupper

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By the time they cut the budget and reevaluate needs and specifications, I suspect that all we would be able to afford is this

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Offline RookieMistake

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LSVW Replacement anyone?
« Reply #162 on: July 26, 2013, 11:50:04 »
I have heard that the replacement project for the LSVW were put on hold.

Any word as to what are the possible options? and when we could be possibly getting them?

Offline milnews.ca

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Re: LSVW Replacement anyone?
« Reply #163 on: July 26, 2013, 11:57:40 »
Have you heard of the "search" function?  It works amazingly well.
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The latest via MERX:
Quote
.... The Department of National Defence (DND) has a requirement for theoretical and practical on- and off-road vehicle mobility fundamentals training.  The Logistics Vehicle Modernization (LVM) Project, which will replace the existing light and heavy logistics vehicles and associated equipment, is currently in the Option Analysis phase.  In order to assist with the finalization of the Statement of Requirements, the development of the Statement of Work and the test plan, the Project Management Office LVM has a requirement to train engineers, technicians and other technical staff to enhance their technical knowledge of military tactical vehicles’ off- and on-road mobility fundamentals.  This includes engineering aspects of vehicle design, testing, and operation which are unique to military vehicles.  Another objective of this course is for candidates to better understand the vehicle terrain interaction, and to improve their ability to optimize the use of the vehicle for specific conditions.

This Advance Contract Award Notice (ACAN)

The purpose of this ACAN is to signal DND’s intention to award a contract with an estimated value of US $44,140.00 for theoretical and practical military tactical vehicle mobility fundamentals training for nine (9) technical staff, to the Nevada Automotive Test Center (A Division of Hodges Transportation, Inc.) of Carson City, Nevada ....
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Offline MCG

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So this is a contract to train the project staff so that they can write the SOR and SOW in order to eventually get to the RFP.
As the SOR and SOW are written in different offices, it would suggest the students will be a mix of Army from DLR and civi engineers/techs from ADM(Mat).
Wonder why we did not turn to the faculty in RMC responsible to teach "military tactical vehicles’ off- and on-road mobility fundamentals," and including "engineering aspects of vehicle design, testing, and operation which are unique to military vehicles."

Offline Jim Seggie

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I'd rather have the team made up of a bunch of drivers, maintainers and sup techs.
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Offline dangerboy

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So this is a contract to train the project staff so that they can write the SOR and SOW in order to eventually get to the RFP.
As the SOR and SOW are written in different offices, it would suggest the students will be a mix of Army from DLR and civi engineers/techs from ADM(Mat).
Wonder why we did not turn to the faculty in RMC responsible to teach "military tactical vehicles’ off- and on-road mobility fundamentals," and including "engineering aspects of vehicle design, testing, and operation which are unique to military vehicles."

Especially since they do teach that.  On the ATWO and ATSO courses  have a module on Vehicle Systems, Survivability and Mobility that sounds like they cover those topics.
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Offline MrGnr

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I'd rather have the team made up of a bunch of drivers, maintainers and sup techs.

Jim, the DLR 6 team does indeed have an MSE OP(CWO) and also 2 Maintainers (one Maj, one MrGnr) teamed up with 6 LOG Officers and one Infantry WO.  When the time comes the equipment will be tested/trialed by Army troops to ensure their feedback is recorded and heeded.

Especially since they do teach that.  On the ATWO and ATSO courses  have a module on Vehicle Systems, Survivability and Mobility that sounds like they cover those topics.

Dangerboy, yes they do cover those subjects on the ATWO/LFTSP course. But to quote a favourite saying from the course "the information is a mile wide and an inch deep". While the information presented gives you a basic understanding of terramechanics it does not provide enough information to write an informed SOR/SOW. The more informed we are at the time of writing, the less chance of getting something wrong. A little bit of an investment at the start of the project will provide big dividends later on.

Offline MCG

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... yes they do cover those subjects on the ATWO/LFTSP course. But to quote a favourite saying from the course "the information is a mile wide and an inch deep". While the information presented gives you a basic understanding of terramechanics it does not provide enough information to write an informed SOR/SOW.
But the RMC engineers who instruct the ATWO/ATSO should be able to deliver this deeper, more focused instruction to the project staff ... or they should be capable of advising the project staff.  Why are we contracting for a capability that is resident in the organization?

Offline Kat Stevens

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Jim, the DLR 6 team does indeed have an MSE OP(CWO) and also 2 Maintainers (one Maj, one MrGnr) teamed up with 6 LOG Officers and one Infantry WO.  When the time comes the equipment will be tested/trialed by Army troops to ensure their feedback is recorded and heeded.

Dangerboy, yes they do cover those subjects on the ATWO/LFTSP course. But to quote a favourite saying from the course "the information is a mile wide and an inch deep". While the information presented gives you a basic understanding of terramechanics it does not provide enough information to write an informed SOR/SOW. The more informed we are at the time of writing, the less chance of getting something wrong. A little bit of an investment at the start of the project will provide big dividends later on.

You mean like with the LSVW?  That kind of heeding of feedback?  God help our troops.
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Offline Colin P

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I wonder if the LSVW was more a case of the builder mucking it up, than the original design? IVECO's are popular with globetrotting crowd, just saw 2 here in Vancouver all kitted out.

Offline recceguy

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I wonder if the LSVW was more a case of the builder mucking it up, than the original design? IVECO's are popular with globetrotting crowd, just saw 2 here in Vancouver all kitted out.

Comparing the IVECO and the LSVW, is like comparing the original German VW Iltis and that cheesy knockoff that we got from Bombardier.

They both look like their parent, but that's about where it stops.

YMMV

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Offline MCG

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IVECO's are popular with globetrotting crowd, just saw 2 here in Vancouver all kitted out.
We have allies still using the IVECO VM90T on operations.  It is a platform that could have filled all the roles of the LSVW that we gave its knock-off, and it could do the C&R, MP, and liaison functions we gave the G-wagon.  Some platform rationalization would not be bad for us.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,100166.msg1190924.html#msg1190924

Offline recceguy

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We have allies still using the IVECO VM90T on operations.  It is a platform that could have filled all the roles of the LSVW that we gave its knock-off, and it could do the C&R, MP, and liaison functions we gave the G-wagon.  Some platform rationalization would not be bad for us.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,100166.msg1190924.html#msg1190924

Stop that!

Quit making sense!
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